Afraid of the Truth questions...let's give them a shot?

[artistformalyknownasodhi]

i wish u would top ya self,

or i could it for you,

[Beast]

so nidder is the one who knows this and the rest including all nihang dals believe in 5

this is really interesting

sounds like a cult

i hope he doesnt kill all his chele before topping himself!!!

can you please inform the sangat as to why the sources Iron-Bangle mentioned are wrong.

If possible (and this may be difficult), could you please give an intellectual answer.

[artistformalyknownasodhi]

well u tuffed ya self their beats aguptkaur give a intellectual answer.

tut tut for shame on thee beast

[gupy]

to aguptkaur,

why do you persist in childish comments???

To everyone else,

Try to resist, this is a great thread don't reduce yourselves to mindless huirling of abuse.

This topic has been discussed many times before, and to summarise :

5 ks :

Sikhs today (almost all of them), modern day scholars and sants, version of dasam granth with 5 k reference

Other :

Historical texts pre 1900s, 18th/19th century rehitnamas,Tanakhahnamae, sarbolh guru darbaar and practical applications fro shastar vidiya

My conclusion:

I think it unlikely 5 Ks were the original prescribed rehit, however it was prob a well observed practice implicitally frm the original rehit. I.e. Kangha would have been common for most people in general, and kara is a useful shastar. However to call it a formalised rehit for all is not very probable. I think it was made to be so prominent in the last 100 yrs to aid the overall evolution of the khalsa into what the reformists wanted. I.e. a strong unifying Sikh identity with various socio-political advantages.

Inshort i think for most people who have studied primary sources of Sikh history, and have a more 'grounded' understanding of what the Khalsa is (as opposed to todays romantic ideology) then the above issue, is in effect a none issue.

What about other q's, like the Sahajdhari identities.

Do you think Udhasis are Sikhs (equivalent to Khalsa) ?

[Guest]

Gupy you are correct in saying its a non issue, most people feel threatened because their "truth" doesnt seem to be true. Rehitnamas state that the Khalsa should comb their hair twice a day, then obviously it would be sensible to carry a kanga around with them, the kara would serve as a weapon, so most Khalsa would have one of those too, although Malcolm states that not all Singhs carried them.

Just because Kanga and Kara are not mentioned in the Trai Mudra, then it doesnt mean that Singhs didnt carry them, just as Kamarkasa, Bana isnt mentioned, doesnt mean Singhs walked around naked.

I guess the only people who the realisation of the Trai Mudra would effect is the people who are adament that Keski is the Kakar.

[guv]

beast & artist, don't be so harsh on aguptkaur. she is a little slow & makes mistakes (as shown by her above post to veer vijaydeep singh & her mistaken accusations of paedophilia). in my experience u need to ask her a question at least 3 times before she's fully comprehended it. as this is an equal-opportunities forum, i ask that u show a little compassion to those who are not as able & use some patience when dealing with aguptkaur. thank u.

so nidder is the one who knows this and the rest including all nihang dals believe in 5

this is really interesting

sounds like a cult

i hope he doesnt kill all his chele before topping himself!!!

now aguptikaur, i will attempt to explain beast's objections to ur above post in a way that u can understand.

1. u say:

so nidder is the one who knows this

first, his name is spelled nidar. second, ur statement is completely illogical as iron bangle is the one who said it. unless u are implying that iron bangle is nidar?? :shock: if not, then nidar is not the only one "who knows this".

2. u say:

the rest including all nihang dals believe in 5

where are ur sources for this information? if u had said that some other nihangs believe in 5, we could have accepted the statement based on the conversations darshan das has had, but u say "all". what is your evidence to back up this claim?

3. u say:

sounds like a cult

i hope he doesnt kill all his chele before topping himself!!!

u seem to have a lot of hatred & fear of nidar singh & his views. hatred & fear are usually the result of deep-seated insecurities. y are u so afraid of nidar singh's views?

4. u seem to reject all of the sources iron bangle quoted off-hand. do u have any evidence to back up ur claim?

beast has also requested that u please give an intellectual answer. what he means by this is that rather than give a short sarcastic or stupid reply displaying insecurity in ur own views, u give a reply based on evidence not opinion & displaying some use of brainpower.

now as questions seem to have to be repeated to u before u answer them, i now repeat the aforementioned questions:

questions to aguptkaur:

1. are u implying that iron bangle is nidar singh? if not, do u then retract ur statement that noone but nidar singh has these views?

2. what is your evidence to show that "the rest including all nihang dals believe in 5" k's?

3. y are u so afraid of nidar singh & his views?

4. do u have any evidence to counter the sources that iron bangle quoted?

[SAadmin]

3ks

why does sant singh wear 5ks

speaking of 5ks so does

baba makhan singh baba bakalia

baba diah singh bidhi chandia

baba nihal singh tarna dal

maybe its just giddar and his chela of buming dal uk

Then you got Nirmaley sants.. who didn't wear 5k's at all...

Jai Jai Nirmal Panth..

Nanak Nirmal Panth Chalaya...Vah Ji Vah

not implying that sikhs shouldn't wear any kakars but just saying...lets not bring in sants in to this debate..they are above maryada ... they can do whatever they want (fakir baiparvah hunda hai)...there was a female student of baba karam singh ji hoti mardan waley ..she would not wear any clothes....no katarpanthis even attempted to tell her to do this or that...she was in her "Sat" "Chit" "Anand Saroop" Avastha...

anand hi anand

[vijaydeep Singh]

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh

Das is sorry that Das can not bring sister Agupt Kaur Ji whole verse online as Das is at present away from his home where Holy Granth is kept.

When Das will be there das will bring it.Then coming to question that she can refer Amrit Kirtan Pothis which may have the whole verse or can buy it from a shop.It is published by Budhadal.com.

So can be purchased from address of there printing press at patiala.

In Sikhism das find it wrong when we fight over meat,over 5ks Keski and all.Main purpose of Sikhi is to unit with Akal.At one stage when das use to go to Nirmala akhara,das was not having 5 ks not even Kes as das was a Hindu. In the stage of Sahijdhari(Slow adoption) das got one by one all ks.

In fact Nirmalas with out 5ks made a person das without any of 5ks with all 5ks.They have been doing such sort of Prachar since past 300 years or more.Akal Bless.

[tSingh]

True say, Das

[gsingh00]

edit

[opensikh]

Why have 3 when you can have 5 useles debates

[Niranjana]

in response to

1. Why do the ancient Sikh historical texts such as Sarbloh Guru Durbar, Gurprtap Suraj Prakash, Naveen Panth Prakash etc. speak of 'Treh Mudra' (three adornments - kard, kachera and kesh) instead of the '5 Ks'*

(* The 5 K - kesh (unshorn hair), kara (steel/iron war bracelet), kirpan/kard (dagger), kanga (wooden comb) and kachera (breeches))?

The shabad written in sri dasam granth, nisani sikhi ki panj harf asat kaaf

clearly shows that punj kakkars are mandatory

Gur Fateh!

I love this shabd, particularly since it frequently gets quoted by many zealous Sikhs when discussing Kakkars and when suddenly when it is pointed out that the Shabd indicates Kesh as a Kakkar, many Sikhs from groups who claim to the contrary denounce this Shabd as fake!

What really makes it all the more interesting is that these same groups frequently attack Namdharis for instance in the same vein as Radhasoamis and Nakli Nirankaris or Buddha Dal Nihangs and Hazoori Singhs as RSS agents, on grounds that the former disrespect Gurbani and that the later (Nihangs) focus too heavily on Dasam Bani.

Of course the fact that Namdharis, despite their 'theories' on Guruship (which is a separate matter) do in fact respect both the Adi Granth and Dasam Granth as Bani without question (re: Raagmala, the Shabd quoted above, Charitropakhyan, Chandi Path etc) misses them and indeed that the fact that Nihangs (and Hazoori Singhs as well as those in Patna Sahib) maintaining both Adi and Dasam Granths collectively as Guru Sahib suddenly seems to upset them!

Most Ironic...

...to settle this debate on Treh Mudra, as I'm sure as been referenced already above, please see: http://www.amritworld.com/trai_mudra.html