The Mother of Waahiguroo?

[Kam1825]

As i said please give me some time to put the audio up. We know have 4 hours worth and i will not be able to summerise it. As soon as the audio is on the net i will post the link on this thread

[shaheediyan]

Balbir Singh Ji,

"Please read my posts carefully. The truth is that Gurus gave Gurumantra but they did not write about it."

Yes I agree, but they spoke it, and it was spoken and given to the Panj Pyare by Satguru, who have on Satguru's command, have given the Gurmantar to the Khalsa ever since.And it was received and written by the same "true" Sikh who wrote the Sri Guru Granth Sahib.

"The question is about Bhai Gurdas Jee. Why did he want to declare Gurumantra in writing? Did he want to run a step ahead of the Gurus?

Bhai Gurdaas Ji was not trying to be a step ahead of Satguru, his actions were as per the will of Satguru - so the point is N/A, his vaaran were accepted by Satguru and have been treated as a method of learning and understanding Sikhi since.

"Many years after the demise of Bhai Gurdas Jee Guru Gobind Singh Jee compiled Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Still, He did not mention anywhere the Gurumantra 'Waahiguroo'. Why?"

I am not in a position to speak on or answer on behalf of my father, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj.

But in my humble "opinion", Vaheguru Gurmantar naam simran is part of the Gursikhs rehit, given during the amrit sanchaar, a tradition, the same as the type of traditions you follow but do not question i.e. using Singh name, using Sat Sri Akaal salutation, regarding Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru.

"For some Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the Guru because Bhai Prahlad Jee wrote the poem containing the line 'Guroo maanyo Granth'.

For me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the Guru because I enliven it."

In contrast to the hard evidence you repeately request in all your posts, because you "enliven it", does not answer the question.

Also, please come out of this illusion 'Maharaj does indeed contain the holy words of our Guru." The true Guru is universal.

How is that an illusion, Maharaj is universal, no one said otherwise.

"Only Maya has traditions. All beliefs disappear when Truth rises."

Yet your belief in the tradition that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is your Guru still exists?

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

For me Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the Guru because I enliven it."

In contrast to the hard evidence you repeately request in all your posts, because you "enliven it", does not answer the question.

I want to reply to this point.

It may somewhat diverge from the thread of the discussion but may prove some use anyways. Without human beings what is the point of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib? How can the values encapsulated in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib be real, if human beings do not enliven those values. A teaching from a Guru becomes alive when a student becomes and assimilates that value, digests that value internally. A Guru is accepted as such only when the values he encapsulates are passed and internalised by the student. By saying the Sri Guru Granth Sahib is my Guru because I enliven it implies a deeper relationship with Guru Jee than saying he is my Guru because of such an such historical reason, the historical evidence is secondary. Primary evidence is the psychological link to the Sri Guru Granth Sahib, encapsulating the values of Guru Jee is the primary evidence. Which cannot be demostrated on internet forums.

[shaheediyan]

Yes, I don't disagree.

But the point is equally applicable to Vaheguru gurmantar, that was my point. You can't have it both ways.

The tradition (discovering which is ultimately his kirpa) leads us to the Guru, then the Guru leads us to Vaheguru.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all and Shaheediyan Jee!

Quote "And it was received and written by the same "true" Sikh who wrote the Sri Guru Granth Sahib."

This statement is misleading and incomplete. Please be careful. Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee what Gurdev dictated him.

Quote "his vaaran were accepted by Satguru and have been treated as a method of learning and understanding Sikhi since."

In my view, Satguru did not accept his vaaran and therefore did not include in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Quote "I am not in a position to speak on or answer on behalf of my father,"

I have asked you the question.

Quote "How is that an illusion, Maharaj is universal, no one said otherwise."

The expression 'our Guru' is more frequently used by people whose authority and piece of cake get bigger.

Quote "Yet your belief in the tradition that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is your Guru still exists?"

Again, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the result of the Guru's Wisdom. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not the Guru because of a tradition.

**************

Quote "But the point is equally applicable to Vaheguru gurmantar, that was my point. You can't have it both ways. The tradition (discovering which is ultimately his kirpa) leads us to the Guru, then the Guru leads us to Vaheguru."

That is interesting. One discovers vaheguru gurmantar following Panj Piaray that he knows and repeats it from his childhood following his parents, siblings, friends, a Raagee, Paathee or Granthee who does Ardaas.

Please write something about the topic.

Balbir Singh

[Mystical]

Quote "his vaaran were accepted by Satguru and have been treated as a method of learning and understanding Sikhi since."

In my view, Satguru did not accept his vaaran and therefore did not include in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Guru Ji said Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaara was the Key to Bani.

[SAadmin]

Guru Ji said Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaara was the Key to Bani.

If we go by your logic then jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie, chaupi sahib is not included in sri guru granth sahib ji either but separately written by sri dasam patsah, are you going to suggest they are not bani either? since they are not included in sri guru granth sahib ji, does that mean those banis above are not accepted by guru's.?

[Kharag Singh]

what a stupid question, Next balbir will come out with "HAIL MARY MOTHER OF GOD"

[Amrikingh]

LOL

[shaheediyan]

"Quote "And it was received and written by the same "true" Sikh who wrote the Sri Guru Granth Sahib."

This statement is misleading and incomplete. Please be careful. Bhai Gurdas Jee wrote Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee what Gurdev dictated him."

Statement is clear, we all know Satguru dictated Gurbani, the point which you keep conveniently eluding, is that of the importance and stature of Bhai Gurdaas i.e. that of a true Sikh - this is evidenced by Satguru choosing his Mamaji to perform this most holy and special service.

"Quote "his vaaran were accepted by Satguru and have been treated as a method of learning and understanding Sikhi since."

In my view, Satguru did not accept his vaaran and therefore did not include in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee."

Where is your evidence that Bhai Sahibs vaaran were not accepted? All factions of the panth accept Bhai Gurdaas Ji's vaaran from Guru sahibs times, it is not a contraversial subject. Please stop using the silly arguement that they were not incuded in Gurbani, they are not Gurbani, they serve the purpose of helping to understand Gurbani.

"Quote "I am not in a position to speak on or answer on behalf of my father,"

I have asked you the question."

And I believe only my father can answer it. I am happy with what he has gifted me with thus far, the holy Gurmantar.

"Quote "How is that an illusion, Maharaj is universal, no one said otherwise."

The expression 'our Guru' is more frequently used by people whose authority and piece of cake get bigger."

Kindly expand.

"Quote "Yet your belief in the tradition that Sri Guru Granth Sahib is your Guru still exists?"

Again, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is the result of the Guru's Wisdom. Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not the Guru because of a tradition."

How do you know "of" Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and it's contributors?

Because of tradition/history, and most likely because your parents told you.

What you experience from reading and understanding Gurbani is a different matter.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all!

Quote from RupZ Jee "Guru Ji said Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaara was the Key to Bani."

This is what preachers go on saying. The Gurus never said this, instructed or wrote about this. Please provide a reference if someone has it.

**************

Quote from N30 S!NGH Jee "If we go by your logic then jaap sahib, tav parsad swaie, chaupi sahib is not included in sri guru granth sahib ji either but separately written by sri dasam patsah, are you going to suggest they are not bani either? since they are not included in sri guru granth sahib ji, does that mean those banis above are not accepted by guru's.?"

Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee did not include His Hymns in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. However, He could include at least a part of Bhai Gurdas Jee's poetry in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Nevertheless, He did not even mention his name in Guru's Hymns. Please ponder. Why?

I have not come across any answer from the Sikh responsible leaders why Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Hymns are not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee. He compiled His Granth separately. Why?

**************

Quote from from Shaheediyan Jee "Statement is clear, we all know Satguru dictated Gurbani, the point which you keep conveniently eluding, is that of the importance and stature of Bhai Gurdaas i.e. that of a true Sikh - this is evidenced by Satguru choosing his Mamaji to perform this most holy and special service."

I have nothing against Bhai Gurdas Jee as a person. I disagree with many of his statements that are just the opposites from those of the Gurus. One can start a separate topic on it.

Also, Gurdev took services of Bhai Gurdas Jee for other reasons like his hand writing, not because he was Gurdev's Mamaji.

Quote "Where is your evidence that Bhai Sahibs vaaran were not accepted? All factions of the panth accept Bhai Gurdaas Ji's vaaran from Guru sahibs times,"

The difference is clearly visible. I am talking about the Guru's acceptance. You are talking about Panth's acceptance.

Do some know how many acts the Panth is doing today that the Gurus never suggested? I could not count those even. Please name one act of the so-called Panth along with one reference from the Gurus. I will be grateful.

Quote "And I believe only my father can answer it. I am happy with what he has gifted me with thus far, the holy Gurmantar."

I hope you are not indicating Bhai Gurdas Jee or may be your biological father was one of the Panj Piyarays. Then your father is your Guru as the true Guru gives Gurumantra.

Quote "Kindly expand 'The expression 'our Guru' is more frequently used by people whose authority and piece of cake get bigger."

Please watch. Always fewer people are accepting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee as their Guru. It is because more fanatics are behaving strangely with the Guru in ever more restricted ways. One of it is calling Him 'our Guru', giving others feels that He is not yours.

Quote "How do you know "of" Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and it's contributors?"

It is because TRUTH is the same experience since Aadi Kaal (ages began).

Quote "What you experience from reading and understanding Gurbani is a different matter."

My experience is from the true NAM Simran, not from reading Gurbani. Only after true Simran the understanding of Gurbani is possible.

**************

Let us move further. I am not preparing or correcting a new generation of preachers on forums so that they can run their shops in the future also.

From now on I feel to prefer contact with those who have true NAM Simran or the thirst of it.

Thanks for the delightful Satsangs.

Love.

Balbir Singh

[shaheediyan]

"My experience is from the true NAM Simran"

"I hope you are not indicating Bhai Gurdas Jee or may be your biological father was one of the Panj Piyarays."

Yes Balbir Ji, as I have seen in other historic discussions of yours, the topic ends in it's usual way, "you" having have experienced the true simran". Unfortunately, it does not show through your mischievous and twisting comments, you know very well who I meant by my father, the father of the Khalsa - who blesses us with his presence in the form of the Panj Pyare, something you may not have experienced and are therefore not qualified to comment on.

For your info, those with a high spiritual jeevan were chosen for the most holy service of writing Guru's Bani - Bhai Gurdaas Ji, Baba Deep Singh Ji, Bhai Manni Singh Ji.

[chatanga]

Balbir Singh, when you were doing naam simran, what were you actually saying to remember Akal by?

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all and Shaheediyan Jee!

Quote "you know very well who I meant by my father, the father of the Khalsa - who blesses us with his presence in the form of the Panj Pyare, something you may not have experienced and are therefore not qualified to comment on."

I want to ask Sikhs a genuine question. No Guru ever called His previous Guru 'Father'. All Gurus called God their Father. The true Guru never teaches anyone to call His Guru in person his father or God.

From whom Sikhs learned to call their tenth Guru Father? Did Guru Gobind Singh Jee ever instruct this? Was this another trick of preachers to cash the feelings of dedicated Sikhs?

Khaalsa means one who is pure. The true Guru does not give birth to a Khaalsa. The true Guru transfers God's Grace as True NAM. One becomes blessed with the growing purity. Also, purity is not the child of the true Guru. God is the father of the purity and the pure person.

Quote "For your info, those with a high spiritual jeevan were chosen for the most holy service of writing Guru's Bani - Bhai Gurdaas Ji, Baba Deep Singh Ji, Bhai Manni Singh Ji."

Please come out of the illusion. Nobody gets a high spiritual Jeevan by writing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee with ink on paper. It does not matter how neat his handwriting is.

One receives a high spiritual Jeeven through true NAM Simran.

**************

Quote "Balbir Singh, when you were doing naam simran, what were you actually saying to remember Akal by?"

Please search and find a true Saint to know this. Do not waste any moment with empty promises.

I wish all God's Grace.

Balbir Singh

[Kam1825]

Balbir Singh i think you dodges Chatangas question which is very straight foreward.

What incantation do you use when doing naam simran? If you cant answer that question then how do you expect people to answer your questions.

I would like to see you ask this question on sikhsangat.com and see how long you last before being booted off.

[shaheediyan]

"Please come out of the illusion. Nobody gets a high spiritual Jeevan by writing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee with ink on paper. It does not matter how neat his handwriting is.

One receives a high spiritual Jeeven through true NAM Simran."

You are politician Balbir Singh Ji, you have been wasting your time here - no one is falling for your "I know true simran" line.

You are in fact a true politician.

I clearly stated that these Gurmukhs were chosen to perform this seva because of thier high jeevans, and not as you have twisted - that they achieved high jeevans through performing this holy task (which could actually happen in any case in my opinion - due to their love, dedication and exposure to Gurbani).

With regards to your other comments, please enlighten as to your views and understanding of what happened in 1699, or do yo ubelieve that this is also a big hoax?

[singho]

All Gurus called God their Father. The true Guru never teaches anyone to call His Guru in person his father or God.

From whom Sikhs learned to call their tenth Guru Father? Did Guru Gobind Singh Jee ever instruct this?

This is an important point. I am not aware of any evidence that Guru Gobind Singh ever called himself or considered himself the 'father' of his Sikhs.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all!

Quote from Kam1825 Jee "What incantation do you use when doing naam simran? If you cant answer that question then how do you expect people to answer your questions."

The Incantation as suggested by all the Gurus is of the Names 'Raam', 'Hari', 'Narayan' etc.

Quote "I would like to see you ask this question on sikhsangat.com and see how long you last before being booted off."

I feel they have closed their children in strong rooms worrying that they may get spoiled. Their posts show what they are learning.

**************

Quote from Shaheediyan Jee "clearly stated that these Gurmukhs were chosen to perform this seva because of thier high jeevans,"

Please do not suggest Sikhs to start writing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee to stamp their high jeevans.

Quote "With regards to your other comments, please enlighten as to your views and understanding of what happened in 1699, or do yo ubelieve that this is also a big hoax?"

Can you travel back on your memory track to watch the scenes?

**************

Please stay with the topic and express your views after contemplating the Sabad from Gayand Jee on Ang 1402.

Mother Jasod is saying whom to eat curd and rice?

Balbir Singh

[chatanga]

QUOTE"Quote "Balbir Singh, when you were doing naam simran, what were you actually saying to remember Akal by?"

Please search and find a true Saint to know this. Do not waste any moment with empty promises.

I wish all God's Grace.

Balbir Singh " QUOTE.

Balbir Singh plz answer the question. im intrigued.

i'll ask you once again , what words were you using to remember Akal by when you did naam simran. I dont want an answer from the saints. I want an answer from you. If you cannot tell me, then tell me you cant tell me, rather than telling me where else i can find the answer.

[Xylitol]

Some teachings in Sikhi are not written down but handed down. For example, the Amrit Sanchar rahit, was remarkably uniform across different jathas even before the sgpc's time. During the Amrit Sanchar, new initiates are told that their father is Guru Gobind Singh ji.

I don't know why the tenth Guru's hymns are separate, perhaps it's b/c of his nimarta, he kept his own bani's as separate. Perhaps it's b/c Dasam Bani seems to be more specific to the sikhs whereas Guru Granth Sahib ji seems to be more universal (not that I'm saying Dasam Bani isn't - it's just that there are elements of rahit etc mentioned in there such as kesh is symbol of a sikh). Either way, it's Waheguru's Hukum.

Why would the tenth Guru take Bhai Gurdass ji's hymns, already sealed by the 5th Guru's approval, and then re-open them? What use would there be for the tenth Guru to mention Bhai Sahib's name when all sikhs knew it and accepted it? Same as today, the entire panth accepts it, the only ones who don't are troublemakers like Kala Afgana who know that their pathetic theories will be ripped to shreds by the keys to the Guru Granth Sahib ji.

I think at this time, Balbir Singh, you should start putting some evidence forward to support your views. And by the way, which Mahapursh was it that taught you the true method of simran?

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all!

Quote from Chatanga Jee "what words were you using to remember Akal by when you did naam simran."

I say 'Raam' when my Guru sings "bhaa-ee ray raam kahhu chit laa-ay."

I repeat 'Hari Hari' when my Guru sings "gur mil naanak har har kahi-aa."

When my Guru sings "saaDhsang japtay naaraa-in tin kay dokh jaray," I start singing with HIM Naaraa-in.

May I ask what do you do when you hear instructions from the true Guru?

**************

Quote from Xylitol Jee "Either way, it's Waheguru's Hukum."

All enlightened persons find either way on earth Waheguru's Hukum. However, the world does not experiences the same.

**************

Dear participants, please write something about the mother of Sarguna Waahiguroo?

Please let me know who feels to give me his valuable time for Satsang. Those who love it please click my posts and enjoy it.

Balbir Singh

[shaheediyan]

"The Incantation as suggested by all the Gurus is of the Names 'Raam', 'Hari', 'Narayan' etc."

And what do you think Vaheguru means:

Bhai Gurdas Ji says:

"In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

The true Guru of Dvapar is said to be Harikrsna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

In the the Treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

In Kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

The recitations o f all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered, The jiv merges again in its origin."

"Please do not suggest Sikhs to start writing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee to stamp their high jeevans."

Again your true nature reveals itself, you are persistently twisting my words even though I have clearly explained my point numerous times.

I am not Satguru, I don't claim to be able to accurately recognise people of high jeevans, unlike my Dashmesh PITA, who recognised Bhai Mani Singh Ji and Baba Deep Singh Ji for their high spiritual characters, I suppose you would class them as "Sub-Guru's".

"Can you travel back on your memory track to watch the scenes?"

No I can't, but I have read in old posts, that you have that ability.

Using your argument - how can you prove Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was written by Satguru's? Your said private realisations are no proof.

"This is an important point. I am not aware of any evidence that Guru Gobind Singh ever called himself or considered himself the 'father' of his Sikhs."

Guru Nanak Dev Ji never called himself Guru either, does that mean we shouldn't refer to them as such? It's our love, respect and obedience towards great souls that causes us to use these terms.

[chatanga]

QUOTE

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all!

Quote from Chatanga Jee "what words were you using to remember Akal by when you did naam simran."

I say 'Raam' when my Guru sings "bhaa-ee ray raam kahhu chit laa-ay."

I repeat 'Hari Hari' when my Guru sings "gur mil naanak har har kahi-aa."

When my Guru sings "saaDhsang japtay naaraa-in tin kay dokh jaray," I start singing with HIM Naaraa-in.

May I ask what do you do when you hear instructions from the true Guru?

QUOTE

Thank you Balbir Singh.

[singho]

"This is an important point. I am not aware of any evidence that Guru Gobind Singh ever called himself or considered himself the 'father' of his Sikhs."

Guru Nanak Dev Ji never called himself Guru either, does that mean we shouldn't refer to them as such? It's our love, respect and obedience towards great souls that causes us to use these terms.

It seems a compelling argument when you put it like that, but I wonder whether according to the prevailing and entrenched idea of the importance of biological paternity in Indic culture (even more so in the 17th century), the use of the word 'father' in reference to Guruji is entirely appropriate. I wonder when this 'convention' came about, and who was responsible for it. Is it possible, that the practice might even have caused sectarian violence at various times in the past (as suggested by Rajinder Nijjhar)?

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!

Dear all!

Quote from Shaheediyan Jee "And what do you think Vaheguru means."

Vaheguru means Wow Guru.

Quote "Bhai Gurdas Ji says"

Please be in service of your Gurdas. Let others be loyal to their True Guru.

Quote "Using your argument - how can you prove Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was written by Satguru's? Your said private realisations are no proof."

I did not expect that you would lie. Let us stop discussions.

Balbir Singh