Nihangs and Fish

[jaikaara]

 

The key to this is in the second line which you have posted and gives the context for the first line. In fact, it's actually an incomplete sentence in the first line....

Those mortals who consume marijuana, fish, and wine (speaking of useless rituals); no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals (the qualifier referring to the previous line) they follow, they will all go to hell (obviously not literal hell, as all that exists is the ONE, but Hell for Sikhs is to be separated from God, so it's saying these things won't help you to become One with God.)

In other words, the Gurus admonished blind rituals and taught that they were useless in our pursuit of merging with Waheguru.  There were many ritualistic practices involving mind alerting substances like marijuana (bhang), opium, and wine (alcohol) - and yes even fish in India...  It is the useless ritual which is being scorned in the above...it's saying all these fake blind useless rituals will get you nowhere.

Example of a Ritual Fish:

We can see further down in the same shabad that it was no the act of eating fish or meat which is being scorned but the ritualistic behaviour... when it's stated that the Brahmins may be the Gurus of the physical world, but they still 'rot and die' in the useless complexities of the rituals in which they partook, but still no closer to God:

ਕਬੀਰ ਬਾਮਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਜਗਤ ਕਾ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Kabīr bāman gurū hai jagaṯ kā bẖagṯan kā gur nāhi.
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees. 
ਅਰਝਿ ਉਰਝਿ ਕੈ ਪਚਿ ਮੂਆ ਚਾਰਉ ਬੇਦਹੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥੨੩੭॥
Arajẖ urajẖ kai pacẖ mū▫ā cẖāra▫o beḏahu māhi. ||237||
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||

And finally again in the same shabad, Kabeer qualifes it all by saying that God is not foind through useless rituals etc. because God is within everyone and everything... in every grain of sand, and states there is no difference between himself and God:

ਸੁਨੁ ਸਖੀ ਪੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਉ ਬਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਬਸੈ ਕਿ ਪੀਉ ॥ सुनु सखी पीअ महि जीउ बसै जीअ महि बसै कि पीउ ॥ Sun sakẖī pī▫a mėh jī▫o basai jī▫a mėh basai kė pī▫o. Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul. 
ਜੀਉ ਪੀਉ ਬੂਝਉ ਨਹੀ ਘਟ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਿ ਪੀਉ ॥੨੩੬॥ जीउ पीउ बूझउ नही घट महि जीउ कि पीउ ॥२३६॥ Jī▫o pī▫o būjẖa▫o nahī gẖat mėh jī▫o kė pī▫o. ||236|| I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||

ਹਰਿ ਹੈ ਖਾਂਡੁ ਰੇਤੁ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਖਰੀ ਹਾਥੀ ਚੁਨੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Har hai kẖāʼnd reṯ mėh bikẖrī hāthī cẖunī na jā▫e.
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.  (permeates everything)

ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਲੀ ਬੁਝਾਈ ਕੀਟੀ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੩੮॥
Kahi Kabīr gur bẖalī bujẖā▫ī kītī ho▫e kai kẖā▫e. ||238||
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||
 

So we can easily see this shabad is not saying anything about the act of eating meat or fish for sustenence.  It's speaking about useless rituals / pilgrimages / fasts etc as a means to find God, saying all these methods are fruitless when God is in everything and even yourself.  Don't worry about outward shows (rituals), instead focus within your own self, where God is merged like sugar in the sand... immerse yourself in the creation and God by realizing that God is everywhere.  The elephant can't see it because he is separate from the sand... instead if we become like the ant and immerse ourselves within the sand then we will realize we are surrounded by Waheguru.

What problem do you see in that fish ? what tells you its a ritual fish ? this is sent during marriage and don't poke your nose in someone's culture if you don't understand anything. What doesn't apply to you doesn't mean it is bad 

[Lucky]

ThIs shabad line is hugely misunderstood.

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

 

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

 

Is Kabeer ji saying that consuming bhang, fish and wine is a ritual ??

I don't think so......but may be some do...... I personally understand that he is talking about those guys that see the dancing whores whilst consuming those aphrodisiacs and then indulge in the low life stuff.  Muslims, especially the Bengalis really enjoy the hash, fish and wine because they FIRMLY believe the items to be aphrodisiacs that can enhance their dirty pleasures.

On top of that they like to keep those mouthfuls of red paan.

He is referring to these filthy mortals that indulge very heavily in these activities especially a few months before their hajj or ramadan

THEN what happens ??...................They all go on a guilt trip and try to make up their goodness during Ramadan where they will be FASTING, going HAJJ pilgrimage and doing their face east RITUALS...etc.....

HOWEVER, no matter what they do or how many fasts they keep... they will still go to hell because their intentions were as if to 'dirty up' deliberately and then clean up for forgiveness.

 

 

[dalsingh101]

Is this another way of saying:

 

Billi sau choohay kaa kay haj gayee

[kdsingh80]

Is this another way of saying:

 

Billi sau choohay kaa kay haj gayee

there is word sharabi kababi who indudge in these type of thiongs even though kabab is not considered as bad among non vegetarian  communnitties

Also those who believe that kabir ji's line are against meat and fish how will they justify fareed ji's tuk

ਜਿਨਾ ਖਾਧੀ ਚੋਪੜੀ ਘਣੇ ਸਹਨਿਗੇ ਦੁਖ ॥੨੮॥   जिना खाधी चोपड़ी घणे सहनिगे दुख ॥२८॥   Jinā kẖāḏẖī cẖopṛī gẖaṇe sėhnige ḏukẖ. ||28||   Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||

ਰੁਖੀ ਸੁਖੀ ਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਠੰਢਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਪੀਉ ॥   रुखी सुखी खाइ कै ठंढा पाणी पीउ ॥   Rukẖī sukẖī kẖā▫e kai ṯẖandẖā pāṇī pī▫o.   Eat dry bread, and drink cold water.

fish is not staple diet but chopri roti is very popular among sikhs and even served in langar

[paapiman]

Note: The only meat allowed to be consumed by a Sikh (for survival/medical purposes), is ritualistic(prepared according to Jhatka Maryada), as ordered by God.

Back to the main issue of eating fish.

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

There are many arths of these tuks. One cannot take one arth and use to discard another one. It is very clear that the above first verse is talking about fish in general terms. It does not have to be ritualistically killed or used in a ritual. None of the scholars, including Prof. Sahib Singh (very popular among Missionaries) have mentioned about ritualistic fish meat

.

Let's look at the evidence.

1. Prof. Sahib Singh jee

 

2. Gyani Harbans Singh jee and Fareedkot wala Teeka

 

3. Amir Bhandar Teeka

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

Edited September 29, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

It is possible that there is an arth of the above verse, which takes into account a fish killed ritualistically. But, we cannot discard the other arths done by the great scholars above.

One also needs to provide evidence, regarding the ritualistic fish, to make that case stronger.

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

 

Also those who believe that kabir ji's line are against meat and fish how will they justify fareed ji's tuk

ਜਿਨਾ ਖਾਧੀ ਚੋਪੜੀ ਘਣੇ ਸਹਨਿਗੇ ਦੁਖ ॥੨੮॥   जिना खाधी चोपड़ी घणे सहनिगे दुख ॥२८॥   Jinā kẖāḏẖī cẖopṛī gẖaṇe sėhnige ḏukẖ. ||28||   Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||

ਰੁਖੀ ਸੁਖੀ ਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਠੰਢਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਪੀਉ ॥   रुखी सुखी खाइ कै ठंढा पाणी पीउ ॥   Rukẖī sukẖī kẖā▫e kai ṯẖandẖā pāṇī pī▫o.   Eat dry bread, and drink cold water.

fish is not staple diet but chopri roti is very popular among sikhs and even served in langar

Bro, you have a good concern. Gurparsaad, will try to find an explanation for it.

Anyways, do you have any other supporting evidence to prove that chopri roti cannot be consumed? Any other Gurbani tuks? Any historical evidence? Historical evidence exists for both, in support of lacto-vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet.

In case of support for lacto-vegetarian diet, there are other Gurbani tuks which condemn meat eating, and there is historical evidence available to back it up, but let's focus on chopri roti.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Note: The only meat allowed to be consumed by a Sikh (for survival/medical purposes), is ritualistic(prepared according to Jhatka Maryada), as ordered by God.

Back to the main issue of eating fish.

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

There are many arths of these tuks. One cannot take one arth and use to discard another one. It is very clear that the above first verse is talking about fish in general terms. It does not have to be ritualistically killed or used in a ritual. None of the scholars, including Prof. Sahib Singh (very popular among Missionaries) have mentioned about ritualistic fish meat

 

 

Exactly, anyone can twist nearly any Tuk to mean whatever they want it to.  And invariably, those different meanings will contradict each other... but can we have Gurbani contradict itself? Can one tuk in one shabad, contradict a tuk in a different shabad? Gurbani NEVER contradicts itself.

This is why CONTEXT is so important... We need to absolutely look at the context of a shabad, to see what meaning the original author intended.  Different meanings that we can pull out of a single tuk, without looking at the rest of the shabad, do not matter.  We will likely be entirely off the mark of what the original intended meaning was.  So context is absolutely important.  And in this shanad, it's not the act of consuming those things which is being condemned, but the intent and circumstances surrounding why they consumed them... on the one hand doing things ritualistically (or even for aphrodisiac as Lucky suggested) but it's not the eating of fish which is bad, but the reason they did so... Another way to get the true meaning of a shabad is to look at the Rahao as that is the central idea.

We can not simply pull out individual tuks and put whatever meaning we want on it, while ignoring the context of the shabad, because by doing so we are ignorning the original meaning intended by the author.

I found an article awhile back which gets into this... how it's dangerous to extract individual tuks out of context to suit one's needs... as anyone can put nearly any meaning they want to it while claiming that it stands on its own, meanwhile it could be completely wrong from what the original intent was.  So we absolutely MUST look at the context of the shabad to get what the author was saying.

---

Jaikara: Why is a fish used as part of Marriage ritual? Why is it decorated (as the bride)? Is there something considered 'auspicious' in this practice - I read that it has to do with erasing the bride's past sins / burden on family etc?... Nobody is saying it's "bad" to simply gift a fish... but Sikhi speaks against useless ritual and if it's done with belief to erase past sins of the bride (or anyone else) then it very much is a ritual.

 

[paapiman]

there is word sharabi kababi who indudge in these type of thiongs even though kabab is not considered as bad among non vegetarian  communnitties

Also those who believe that kabir ji's line are against meat and fish how will they justify fareed ji's tuk

ਜਿਨਾ ਖਾਧੀ ਚੋਪੜੀ ਘਣੇ ਸਹਨਿਗੇ ਦੁਖ ॥੨੮॥   जिना खाधी चोपड़ी घणे सहनिगे दुख ॥२८॥   Jinā kẖāḏẖī cẖopṛī gẖaṇe sėhnige ḏukẖ. ||28||   Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. ||28||

ਰੁਖੀ ਸੁਖੀ ਖਾਇ ਕੈ ਠੰਢਾ ਪਾਣੀ ਪੀਉ ॥   रुखी सुखी खाइ कै ठंढा पाणी पीउ ॥   Rukẖī sukẖī kẖā▫e kai ṯẖandẖā pāṇī pī▫o.   Eat dry bread, and drink cold water.

fish is not staple diet but chopri roti is very popular among sikhs and even served in langar

 

 

Bro, the uthanka of the above shabad states that it was recited to a person, who brought food for Bhagat jee. We will have to consider the context, in this case.

According to Gyani Harbans Singh jee, the people who forget Lord and eat buttered bread, will suffer.

Please have a look below:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited September 29, 2015 by paapiman

[kdsingh80]

Bro, you have a good concern. Gurparsaad, will try to find an explanation for it.

Anyways, do you have any other supporting evidence to prove that chopri roti cannot be consumed? Any other Gurbani tuks? Any historical evidence? Historical evidence exists for both, in support of lacto-vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet.

In case of support for lacto-vegetarian diet, there are other Gurbani tuks which condemn meat eating, and there is historical evidence available to back it up, but let's focus on chopri roti.

Bhul chuk maaf

 

there are truck load of historical evidence that sikhs consumed non veg diet particularly in 18th and even in 19th century . lacto vegetarianism gained popularity in latter half of 19th century and 20th century but you don't want to accept it.I don't think think that there is any historical evidence that sikhs did not ate chopri roti's.but one thing is clear that gurbani always propagated simple diet which today's sikhs have forgotted. You can go to any gurdwara and see that 99% of over 25 sikhs have pot belly's. so sikhs are already suffering in pain because of high calories of oil and ghee.

I was just showing you that if you just take literal meaning of tuks then you can find many of them which say something but had deeper meaning

 

I don't think the kabeer ji's tuk you are showing  is against non veg food. It is more reference to type of persons like sharabai kababi  and go to prostitute's .Also kabeer ji 's tuk mention paan , can you please tell me what is wrong in paan if tobacco is not put it in as many people just eat sweet paan after food

[Ragmaala]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areca_nut

Regarding the supari/betel/areca nut used in Paan & Supari. There is a reason why certain things are prohibited by Guru.

"...The habit has many harmful effects on health. The International Agency for Research on Cancer concluded after reviewing the published medical research that chewing areca nut is carcinogenic to humans.^[2][3] Various compounds present in the nut, most importantly arecoline (the primary psychoactive ingredient), contribute to histologic changes in the oral mucosa. As with chewing tobacco, its use is discouraged by preventive efforts, such as awareness of the risks of chewing buai."

In 2003 the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), a World Health Organization sponsored group, reached the conclusion that there is sufficient evidence that the habit of chewing betel quid, with or without tobacco, is carcinogenic to humans.^[19] Support for this conclusion is provided by a recent study which found that paan, even without concurrent tobacco use, is a risk factor for oral cancer. In October, 2009, 30 scientists from 10 countries met at IARC to reassess the carcinogenicity of various agents including areca nut, and mechanisms of carcinogenesis. They confirmed there is sufficient evidence that areca nut, with or without tobacco, can cause cancer.^[20]

Use during pregnancy

Chewing paan (and/or other areca nut and betel leaf formulations) during pregnancy significantly increases adverse outcomes for the baby.^[21] The habit is associated with higher incidences of preterm birth and low birth weight and height.^[14] Biologically, these effects may be a consequence of the arecoline that is found in areca nuts.^[15] The habit also exposes the unborn baby to various other toxic components linked to cancer.^[14]

 

[Ragmaala]

The smell of the fish is the worst smell in the world, it is excruciating, it makes me vomit. I do not understand how people can like fish. It stinks through and through. Even if it is killed in a so called approved way, it still is disgusting man.  Unless one is stuck on an island and there is nothing else to eat besides fish, then it can be understood in terms of survival mode, but otherwise I dont see the point.

When one is doing Bhagti, he understands what is right for him or not.  Even if one is vegetarian, and you eat too  much mithai & sugar it slows you down, even if you eat extra roti/wheat it brings nindra/sleep/susti/alas and makes you horny lol/

Baba Nand Singh Ji would only have a less than an ounce of wheat that to because Guru Jis hukam is not to leave wheat...shode ann kare pakhand...na sohagan na oh rand..."

and if wheat can do that to body just imagine what another flesh would do to you...

 

 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Ragmaala

[kdsingh80]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Areca_nut

Regarding the supari/betel/areca nut used in Paan & Supari. There is a reason why certain things are prohibited by Guru.

"...The habit has many harmful effects on health. The International Agency for Research on Cancer concluded after reviewing the published medical research that chewing areca nut is carcinogenic to humans.^[2][3] Various compounds present in the nut, most importantly arecoline (the primary psychoactive ingredient), contribute to histologic changes in the oral mucosa. As with chewing tobacco, its use is discouraged by preventive efforts, such as awareness of the risks of chewing buai."

In 2003 the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC), a World Health Organization sponsored group, reached the conclusion that there is sufficient evidence that the habit of chewing betel quid, with or without tobacco, is carcinogenic to humans.^[19] Support for this conclusion is provided by a recent study which found that paan, even without concurrent tobacco use, is a risk factor for oral cancer. In October, 2009, 30 scientists from 10 countries met at IARC to reassess the carcinogenicity of various agents including areca nut, and mechanisms of carcinogenesis. They confirmed there is sufficient evidence that areca nut, with or without tobacco, can cause cancer.^[20]

Use during pregnancy

Chewing paan (and/or other areca nut and betel leaf formulations) during pregnancy significantly increases adverse outcomes for the baby.^[21] The habit is associated with higher incidences of preterm birth and low birth weight and height.^[14] Biologically, these effects may be a consequence of the arecoline that is found in areca nuts.^[15] The habit also exposes the unborn baby to various other toxic components linked to cancer.^[14]

 

paan can be eaten without supari, supari can be eaten without paan

[kdsingh80]

The smell of the fish is the worst smell in the world, it is excruciating, it makes me vomit. I do not understand how people can like fish. It stinks through and through. Even if it is killed in a so called approved way, it still is disgusting man.  Unless one is stuck on an island and there is nothing else to eat besides fish, then it can be understood in terms of survival mode, but otherwise I dont see the point.

When one is doing Bhagti, he understands what is right for him or not.  Even if one is vegetarian, and you eat too  much mithai & sugar it slows you down, even if you eat extra roti/wheat it brings nindra/sleep/susti/alas and makes you horny lol/

Baba Nand Singh Ji would only have a less than an ounce of wheat that to because Guru Jis hukam is not to leave wheat...shode ann kare pakhand...na sohagan na oh rand..."

and if wheat can do that to body just imagine what another flesh would do to you...

 

 

What is worst smell for you could be good for others.When my brother went to korea he said that most indian will instantly vomit if they smell korean food, he talked to some indian translators who said that they were forced to eat Korean food as they have to live in Korea and they cannot get indian food everywhere, first they used to vomit but later they get used to it.

 

Millions of people live in coastal area where they Eat fish , sea ponds and river are their farms. they have been doing  it for thousand of years. This is the way god created this earth.Punjab like fertile land is not much in world.God must have committed this big mistake by not creating fertile land everywhere

[kdsingh80]

Here is mention of Sakhi from Jhatka prasad granth where it is mentioned that fish was given as bheta to Guru nanak dev ji

[sukrit kaur]

Millions of people live in coastal area where they Eat fish , sea ponds and river are their farms. they have been doing  it for thousand of years. This is the way god created this earth.Punjab like fertile land is not much in world.God must have committed this big mistake by not creating fertile land everywhere

This is the point.I think  yes these people are helpless ,but why these chosen people are helpless?? Because these are the souls who have no chance of meeting with supreme in their destiny.As Gurbani says only people of great good fortune who are already blessed by almighty, get a chance to have this meeting.So my view is we should not compare ourselves with them.They may be good people,they may have very close relations with divine ,but still what we call Ultimate achievement,(jot ch jot milna) ,cannot be achieved by such souls,who are killing creatures day and night.

So,I think if we have fertile land,we have enough meal alternatives ,then why to be murderers? I think this is the reason the most of saints /avatars were born in India,and principles of Our spiritual ideology is to never kill/eat animals.

So we are the souls,I would say special souls,under the guidance of SGGSJ and we should think about it rather than to compare with others like what they do/eat etc.

So bottom line is

"IF ONE WANTS TO DO BHAKTI,WANT TO ACHIEVE  THE ULTIMATE BLISS,WANT TO BE ONE WITH DIVINE,THEY HE GOTTA LEARN TO SEE DIVINE IN EVERYTHING ELSE,SO SHOULD NEVER EVEN THINK TO KILL A LIFE !

ONLY THAT PERSON HAS RIGHT TO TAKE LIFE,WHO CAN GIVE LIFE TO SOMEONE.SO,I think an ordinary man CANNOT do so.

So stop making excuses like plants have life too,we can kill in our own way or what if we cannot eat other things.Maharaj always helps a person/his sikh in whatever circumstance he is. 

[kdsingh80]

This is the point.I think  yes these people are helpless ,but why these chosen people are helpless?? Because these are the souls who have no chance of meeting with supreme in their destiny.As Gurbani says only people of great good fortune who are already blessed by almighty, get a chance to have this meeting.So my view is we should not compare ourselves with them.They may be good people,they may have very close relations with divine ,but still what we call Ultimate achievement,(jot ch jot milna) ,cannot be achieved by such souls,who are killing creatures day and night.

So,I think if we have fertile land,we have enough meal alternatives ,then why to be murderers? I think this is the reason the most of saints /avatars were born in India,and principles of Our spiritual ideology is to never kill/eat animals.

So we are the souls,I would say special souls,under the guidance of SGGSJ and we should think about it rather than to compare with others like what they do/eat etc.

So bottom line is

"IF ONE WANTS TO DO BHAKTI,WANT TO ACHIEVE  THE ULTIMATE BLISS,WANT TO BE ONE WITH DIVINE,THEY HE GOTTA LEARN TO SEE DIVINE IN EVERYTHING ELSE,SO SHOULD NEVER EVEN THINK TO KILL A LIFE !

ONLY THAT PERSON HAS RIGHT TO TAKE LIFE,WHO CAN GIVE LIFE TO SOMEONE.SO,I think an ordinary man CANNOT do so.

So stop making excuses like plants have life too,we can kill in our own way or what if we cannot eat other things.Maharaj always helps a person/his sikh in whatever circumstance he is. 

1 scientist in north america did calculation and said that if people of north america shift to beef and dairy products instead of grains then it will result in 80 milion less lost lives of animals as so many rats, rabbits pheasants a birds are killed for harvesting , so no food comes to human plate without killing

[Crystal]

Seems like everyone is over looking a point. This is not the 1700s where you can find wild fish.this she, we eat farmed fish( I avoid it like the plague) . please do research into why we should not consume salmon tuna trout sea bass talapia due to the conditions it is bred in. Moreover the amount of crap they feed the fish such as soy pellets. Farmed fish are disease ridden and have less nutrient s compared to real wild fish. Please avoid farmed fish, it is disgusting. 

 

crystal

[paapiman]

there are truck load of historical evidence that sikhs consumed non veg diet particularly in 18th and even in 19th century . 

Paaji, it was already mentioned above that: "Historical evidence exists for both, in support of lacto-vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet." For us, Gurbani is above historical sources. Historical evidence can supplement Gurbani, but cannot replace it. There is no verse in Gurbani which explicitly allows meat eating.

There is no doubt that Jhatka maryada was introduced by Satguru jee and Sikhs used this maryada for survival purposes. One cannot compare the Sikhs of the 18th century, who were fighting to avoid extermination with the Skhs of today's age.

 

I was just showing you that if you just take literal meaning of tuks then you can find many of them which say something but had deeper meaning

Bro, we cannot start discarding the literal meanings of Gurbani, just because they have deeper meanings.

One of the deeper meanings of the above tuks, is as follows:

 

I don't think the kabeer ji's tuk you are showing  is against non veg food. It is more reference to type of persons like sharabai kababi  and go to prostitute's .Also kabeer ji 's tuk mention paan , can you please tell me what is wrong in paan if tobacco is not put it in as many people just eat sweet paan after food

The above tuks might also refer to people, who get intoxicated and go to Prostitutes, but that does not mean that it does not apply to other people, who consume the forbidden food.

According to Prof.Sahib Singh, the word "ਪਾਨਿ" is not referring to betel leaves. It means  - To drink. According to Amir Bhandar teeka, "ਪਾਨਿ" means to drink and it can also refer to Paan, Supari, etc. This is also correct, according to the context. The word "ਭਾਂਗ" refers to dry tobacco leaf. Now, it becomes clear that "ਪਾਨਿ" is referring to the Paan with tobacco, not the regular Paan.

There is nothing wrong in eating Paan without tobacco. Similarly, tea (without tobacco) can be consumed too.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited September 30, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

1 scientist in north america did calculation and said that if people of north america shift to beef and dairy products instead of grains then it will result in 80 milion less lost lives of animals as so many rats, rabbits pheasants a birds are killed for harvesting , so no food comes to human plate without killing

Paaji, you have a good point, but if we start thinking about all these issues, our mind might become very confused. 

We cannot justify eating animals, by the above point. According to this line of thinking, one can justify human slavery too. Do you think all the food which we eat, comes through Gurmat approved processes? Please have a look below:

Quote 

Slavery is a reality in many parts of the world today, and the United States is no exception. In recent years, several cases of slavery in the US food system have been exposed and brought to trial. In most cases, the victims were temporary agricultural workers trying to support their families back home. These workers experienced a range of physical abuses at the hands of their employers and were also denied access to their passports and visas. Most cases of slavery also involve human trafficking, which is defined as the act of recruiting, transporting, transferring, harboring or receiving a person through a use of force, coercion or other means, for the purpose of exploiting them.^[1]

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.foodispower.org/slavery-in-the-us/

 

Eat meat, as animals are killed in the process of harvesting.

Indulge in human slavery as human slavery has been used in the food system.

Both the above statements, are against Gurmat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Animals (including us) break everything down into cells, break the cells down into their base proteins, break those down into molecules and molecules into atoms.... 

Plants break them down into cells, into proteins, into molecules, and then into atoms... 

Break the atoms down into their constituents...  in both cases you will be left with only electrons and quarks (protons and neutrons break down into quarks)

ALL electrons are the exact same

ALL quarks are the exact same

Thus proving ALL of existence is the exact same.  

Where is the actual 'Life' in this??  

It's somewhere outside of this matrix.  And there is only ONE lifesource, which is Waheguru. All the separate 'things' are illusion.

Guru Nanak Dev Ji saw this truth, and he exclaimed, "Who is to say what is meat and wheat is green vegetable, and what is sin?"

How can you say for sure that a plant is any less of a life than an animal when they are made of the exact same thing at the very base of their existence??

In the end whether you eat meat or vegetables, all you are really eating is electrons and quarks.  

 

[paapiman]

Here is mention of Sakhi from Jhatka prasad granth where it is mentioned that fish was given as bheta to Guru nanak dev ji

Paaji, was that person a Muslim follower? His name was Khuaja jee. Did I get it right? He did not take fish daily to Satguru jee. It was one instance, when he was about to take a fish to Satguru jee. How do we know that Satguru jee accepted it or not?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[kdsingh80]

Paaji, it was already mentioned above that: "Historical evidence exists for both, in support of lacto-vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet." For us, Gurbani is above historical sources. Historical evidence can supplement Gurbani, but cannot replace it. There is no verse in Gurbani which explicitly allows meat eating.

 

What about shabad " maas maas kar moorakh jhagrey" It was mentioned that  one hunter gave deer and Guru nanak cooked it and did ucharan of shabad "The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?" Its literal and deeper meaning clearly state that there is no difference between meat and vegetable 

Anyway if you are interested you can read jhatka prakash granth it has ample evidence from all sources.

[paapiman]

What about shabad " maas maas kar moorakh jhagrey" It was mentioned that  one hunter gave deer and Guru nanak cooked it and did ucharan of shabad "The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom. What is called meat, and what is called green vegetables? What leads to sin?" Its literal and deeper meaning clearly state that there is no difference between meat and vegetable 

Anyway if you are interested you can read jhatka prakash granth it has ample evidence from all sources.

Bro, Satguru jee also called a wife (female body) as Maas in that shabad. Therefore, Maharaaj proved that there is no difference between a vegetable, animal and a human.

Does that mean, we can consume human flesh?

Gurparsaad, will discuss this in a separate topic.

Who is the author of Jhatka Prakash granth? Is it available online? English?

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

This book might be a good resource on the issue of meat eating.

Man ought neither eat meat nor use intoxicants by Dr.Santokh Singh

http://www.abebooks.com/9781895471144/Man-Eat-Meat-Use-Intoxicants-1895471141/plp

 

Bhul chuk maaf