OnPathToSikhi

Paaji, Sri Raam Chandar jee Maharaaj and Sri Krishan jee Maharaaj are Pooran Avtaars, but not Pooran Tam Avtaars.
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6.) Pooran Tam Avtar- This is the highest Avtar. This was Guru Nanak Dev Ji. All avtars are made of satogun but according to Gurmat the early avtars were created out of maya, and hence caught up in it. Guru Nanak Dev Ji however was a 100% mirror reflection of God, and hence he was not hampered by the obstacles which hampered the earlier avtars.
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[1] - https://sikhunity.wordpress.com/2014/01/13/pooran-tam-avtar/
Therefore, we cannot put Sri Raam Chandar jee Maharaaj and Sri Krishan jee Maharaaj in the same category, as Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj.
Bhul chuk maaf

Additionally brother, first master did not adopt any person as a guru.
-  Sri Ram Chandar jee Maharaaj had two gurus - Rikhi Vishisht jee and Rikhi Vishwamitar jee
-  Sri Krishan jee Maharaaj had one guru - Rikhi Sandepan jee
But, Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj was the guru of gurus. Instead of adopting a guru, he taught his gurus (Pandit jee, Mullah jee, etc) about God.
Therefore, we must never ever equate anyone, with the greatest of all.
Naa koyee hoyeaa, naa koyee honna, maa gujari day chan varga
Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj.
Dhan Guru Nanak .......tu heen Nirankaar.
Bhul chuk maaf
 

Regarding the Vedas , Baba Ishar Singh Ji said they are not false, they tell about the disease but do not provide the medicine.
The medicine for Ego/ Haumai is only present in Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Chatanga paai saab ji, agree with your views. Me, in fact have been going over some of the topics and am utter loss of words the way some of the members here have been carrying out the discussion. Sometime it feels like a bunch of teenagers trying to shout each other off. Most are so self centered and fueled by their own ego. Unfortunately I cannot say much on the historical technicalities, but some of the view being put forward seem outright irrational.  Even on panthic so called 'issues' some things don't make sense. When we have  'Sikh women fighting for equal rights'. This statement sounds an oxymoron to me. Not saying we do not have social injustice or crimes against women (within Sikh panth as well), but that is what those issues are - Social issues. I would think most of us are accustomed to the western mindset where we see everything in a structural view from top to bottom. And that causes a problem on how we set our own expectations. And then we try to bring that perspective and ideas in Sikhi. People tend to forget that there are no 'structures' in the Sikh panth. Everyone 'reports' to one supreme Waheguru. There is no 'ladder' to climb. For both men or women. You only have spiritual 'ladder' to bring you closer to Waheguru.
Also, It is a shame when we have people here trying to 'define' who is a Sikh. In my view anyone who says he/she follows and tries to live by the teachings of Sir Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, can be called a Sikh. Being Sikh is not a 'stamp'. When you are a 'learner', each person has his/her own pace. The amritdhari are the Khalsa initiated Sikhs. Those who know what it means to give their head to the Guru. Those who know how to serve the Sikh panth and the humanity, with their head in their palm. For their own convenience people cannot meet the higher spiritual standards of being a Amritdhari Khalsa Sikh, and then want to redefine what it means to be a Sikh.
For people who oppose Dasam Bani, I would say you are better off. It is not for the faint hearted and neither for anyone who does not fully understand the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Apologies to all for going off topic. Just wanted to say a few words.

Chatanga paai saab ji, agree with your views. Me, in fact have been going over some of the topics and am utter loss of words the way some of the members here have been carrying out the discussion. Sometime it feels like a bunch of teenagers trying to shout each other off. Most are so self centered and fueled by their own ego. Unfortunately I cannot say much on the historical technicalities, but some of the view being put forward seem outright irrational.  Even on panthic so called 'issues' some things don't make sense. When we have  'Sikh women fighting for equal rights'. This statement sounds an oxymoron to me. Not saying we do not have social injustice or crimes against women (within Sikh panth as well), but that is what those issues are - Social issues. I would think most of us are accustomed to the western mindset where we see everything in a structural view from top to bottom. And that causes a problem on how we set our own expectations. And then we try to bring that perspective and ideas in Sikhi. People tend to forget that there are no 'structures' in the Sikh panth. Everyone 'reports' to one supreme Waheguru. There is no 'ladder' to climb. For both men or women. You only have spiritual 'ladder' to bring you closer to Waheguru.
Also, It is a shame when we have people here trying to 'define' who is a Sikh. In my view anyone who says he/she follows and tries to live by the teachings of Sir Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, can be called a Sikh. Being Sikh is not a 'stamp'. When you are a 'learner', each person has his/her own pace. The amritdhari are the Khalsa initiated Sikhs. Those who know what it means to give their head to the Guru. Those who know how to serve the Sikh panth and the humanity, with their head in their palm. For their own convenience people cannot meet the higher spiritual standards of being a Amritdhari Khalsa Sikh, and then want to redefine what it means to be a Sikh.
For people who oppose Dasam Bani, I would say you are better off. It is not for the faint hearted and neither for anyone who does not fully understand the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Apologies to all for going off topic. Just wanted to say a few words.

Chatanga paai saab ji, agree with your views. Me, in fact have been going over some of the topics and am utter loss of words the way some of the members here have been carrying out the discussion. Sometime it feels like a bunch of teenagers trying to shout each other off. Most are so self centered and fueled by their own ego. Unfortunately I cannot say much on the historical technicalities, but some of the view being put forward seem outright irrational.  Even on panthic so called 'issues' some things don't make sense. When we have  'Sikh women fighting for equal rights'. This statement sounds an oxymoron to me. Not saying we do not have social injustice or crimes against women (within Sikh panth as well), but that is what those issues are - Social issues. I would think most of us are accustomed to the western mindset where we see everything in a structural view from top to bottom. And that causes a problem on how we set our own expectations. And then we try to bring that perspective and ideas in Sikhi. People tend to forget that there are no 'structures' in the Sikh panth. Everyone 'reports' to one supreme Waheguru. There is no 'ladder' to climb. For both men or women. You only have spiritual 'ladder' to bring you closer to Waheguru.
Also, It is a shame when we have people here trying to 'define' who is a Sikh. In my view anyone who says he/she follows and tries to live by the teachings of Sir Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, can be called a Sikh. Being Sikh is not a 'stamp'. When you are a 'learner', each person has his/her own pace. The amritdhari are the Khalsa initiated Sikhs. Those who know what it means to give their head to the Guru. Those who know how to serve the Sikh panth and the humanity, with their head in their palm. For their own convenience people cannot meet the higher spiritual standards of being a Amritdhari Khalsa Sikh, and then want to redefine what it means to be a Sikh.
For people who oppose Dasam Bani, I would say you are better off. It is not for the faint hearted and neither for anyone who does not fully understand the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Apologies to all for going off topic. Just wanted to say a few words.

Yes Pakistani jatt. .but your ancestors are cowards who kneeled before the mughalss and Afghans. Your ancestors were coward Hindus is nce the first invasion of panjab  by sulleh .
You let maleech rape and take your women....haha what a soorma jatt, vah ve vah. You had raised arms to invaders whereas us Sikhs of kalgidhar hadhad raised khandas and shastar. Akal Akal Akal Akal Akal Akal
Crystal

Agreed, we were minority, but look at our sacrifices in liberating Punjab from foreign occupation and then in India's freedom struggle. You will be amazed.
God's power can turn a majority into a minority in a few moments. 
Bhul chuk maaf

Vaheguru
We have vishvaash.

akaal ! Akaal

It is not true that Sri Dasam Granth was compiled after 1708. It was compiled during the life time of Guru Gobind Singh and there are still some extant pre-1708 manuscripts availible, - the most famous being the Sri Anandpur bir from 1698.

Before anyone starts reading too much into it just want to point out, we have nothing to offer the Guru other than our 'head'.

And that is why you will always come across as someone full of arrogance and ego. Your "own" reasons. When a Sikh falls at his Guru's charan he leaves/abandons all his OWN reasons and accepts the Guru's reasons as above all. You haven't come to this stage yet, and that's a shame for someone who claims they have researched Gurmat for 18+years.
You claim you don't need Sikhkhoj, but you certainly supported him, in his misrepresented posts, and to me that is possibly worse. First you attach yourself like a parasite to a misguided scholar (so dangerous) and then deny all association with host body.
 
 Not disputed, but completely only in the spiritual sense, and partially in the physical sense. You can present anything you want but the bottom line remains that ALL the Guru's were male,even though there were outstanding female Sikhs present.
That's your arrogance and ego speaking. This work of CharitroPakhyan does not undermine 200 years worth of Miri-Piri teachings. It strengthens it. Or your limited/warped/false intellect prevents you from see the sense.
 
So what? I  have met many Sikhs who say that you don't need the 5ks any more. Does that make it true? Or make me turn my back on Guru Ji?
 
Wouldnt Guru Sahib also have known that the Sikhs would become weak and see Kes as a weight upon their heads at some time? Yet the injunction was still given. And you never doubted, and in fact cheered when SIkh Khoj misrepesented Mehma Parkash, thinking that your own views had been confirmed. Now it's shown otherwise, you go back to "assuming he wrote it".
 
 So why give them ammunition by criticising the Guru's bani? Why not tackle the core issue of people with low spiritual status' and educate them.
Why turn on your Guru because of the fault of his Sikhs?
You believe the stuff that you are spouting don't you? Thats why you have repeated here relentlessly. Do you deny having doubted your Guru? Or turning against him?
As for this guy, why not invite him to the forum?
 
You give our Guru credit??? What arrogance and ego to think that you "give" our Guru anything??? You give the Guru nothing!
It has been written many times, that  Guru Sahib wrote it, yet you deny it, and claim you give the Guru "much credit".
 
That was never disputed! Whether you are open to it is of no relevance.
Wouldn't that just be waste then? Just as your 18+ years of researching Sikhi have been? Why would Guru Sahib call all the Pandits and reward them handsomely and go through the trouble of saying they are not needed. That would be tantamount to saying that Guru Ji wrote irrelevant scriptures, which is so repulsive to think about, but it seems to be the norm for you.
 
Don't be so conniving. Sri Dasme Patshahs Granth as a Saroop was after his passing, but all the words written were before his passing, so that makes no difference whatsoever.
Only seeing SGGSJ as our Guru doens't mean we cannot learn from Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth, Bhai Gurdas Vaaran and Kabitt, Bhai Nand Lal writings does it?
Does that mean you haven't read any other book for knowledge in your WHOLE life?
If that is the case, can you explain why you liked so many of Sikh khojs post giving the wrong view of CharitroPakhyan? If you didn't know why not sit it out?
I think you are lying when you say this, but just don't have the humility or heart to admit that you backed the wrong argument and got caught out. This is what disgusts me most about you.
 

I don't think Guru Maharaj means that, sexual relations with any women except wife means the same thing, religion is not an issue. What I think it means is, ejacualtion in sex means you are willingly doing it even for a moment. I think that is the jist here.
On similar note, during war, Muslims and others used to hurl nasty abuses to singhs in order to provoke them. Singhs naturally reply in same tone, its war what the hell. Guru Gobind Singh Jee heard it and said Singho' dont abuse, say 'waheguru', even in war we have standards.

God knows, what was Raagi jee's intention, when he bowed to him. If he bowed to him, thinking of him as a spiritual personality, then there should be no problem with it.
While bowing to someone, intention is the key to look for (which only God and Brahamgyanis know for sure). Is it, out of fear, out of love, out of respect, out of greed for rewards, for maintaining public image, to impress some people, to teach humility to one's own mind, to respect God's jot (light) in him, equating him with SSGGSJ (Big problem), etc?
Srimaan 108 Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale exposed one of the Naamdhari gurus. Gurparsaad, will make a new topic on it with details.
Bhul chuk maaf

It seems he was tricked into the meeting. Video does not indicate much, though knowing the full context can provide some insight. Going by the social media, video seems to have had it's effect. Nonetheless social media news/people need to calm down. Bhai Balbir Singh Ji Raagi would continue to have the utmost respect from the Sikhs worldwide.
Ashutosh is dead. Old video surfaces now. Why?

I just love Bhai Sahib Ji  , he is the cutest old man I have ever seen.
Let the Nindaks keep doing their Janitors job ..

If anyone claims something to be perfect on the face-value, then he/she is bound to prove it and giving one's our account is perfect way. So, in other words, it's not the personal details. See bro, I'm not pulling your leg or trying to prove you wrong, but I just want to show you the reality. Don't go for right-wing thinking or left-wing thinking. You're bound to get failures. Follow the middle-path as suggested in Guru Ji.
Sikhism as religion would NOT take you anywhere. Come out of your dream world. But the teachings of Sikhism (as written down in Guru Granth Sahib Ji) does have potential to lead you on the path of salvation quickly. But there are 2 conditions that must be fulfilled by anyone who want to ride fastest to salvation:
1. Understand the real meaning and core concepts of Gurbani. e.g Karma, Upsana, Gyan, importance of Guru etc.
2. And then Practice those teachings.
These days, people have forgot the conditions but just claim that Sikhism is the fastest or some say the only. Real Sikhism is not what you see these days. Sikhism is NOT about the Amrit Sanchar, or Panj Payare, or equality vs inequality, or this vs that. It's sad to see that day by day, common people are converting the Sikhism into some package/box and then marketing it. Wake up.
You might remember the conversation with Suleman with sangat during Sant Baba Isher Singh Ji's (Rara Sahib wale) time. Suleman was asked which religion is best: Listen to it and then understand the core he is talking about. He specifically mentioned that everything is same but in Sikhism it is easier to follow a Saint whereas in other religions (referring to Muslims) going to a Saint is NOT allowed.
Bottom-line is:
Sikhism was supposed to be fastest lane ONLY when: One understands the real meanings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji and does understand that there is a need for REAL Saints and practice the teachings.
One Saint has given the following flow-chart to achieve Salvation:
1. Do the company of Sant/Mahapurash/Saint.
2. If you cannot do that, then do Naam (Meditation); Dan/Charity of 10% of your income to needy; Isnan (Bath).
3. If you cannot do Naam, Dan, and Isnan, then do not overburden yourself with sins. In other words, avoid doing sins.
4. If you cannot refain from sins, then it is better to die because without doing steps 1, 2, 3 you are bound to fall to lower planes.
Are not the teachings of Guru Granth Sahib Ji teach exactly what is mentioned in the above 4 steps? Think about it.

If you're genuinely looking for some Spiritual information for peace or willing to investigate the nature of Self, then I would suggest you the following. Otherwise, if your sole intention is to debate or prove your point or just fun then please carry on as you wish.
 
The good place to start learning about the real Sikhism is from "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji". It is a Sikh scripture that is the 11th Guru of Sikhs, IT was given the authority/Guruship by the 10th Sikh Guru. Sikhs have 10 Gurus and it was only during the 10th Guru's time that a formal religion/group (Khalsa) was established by giving them a distinct identity because of that time's need. Before the 10th Guru, they were normally called Sikhs but with no distinct indentiy. The 10th Guru chose not to include his writtings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
What I want to convey is: If you want to study something, then starting from a more gross form is not a good idea. So, again I suggest reading the source instead of just getting confused with personalized thinking of everyone around you. The reason is I say this because even in Sikhs there are different people who are not good spiritually, they are just like everyone else.
Recently Sikhs (like any other religion) have gone towards "Radical Interpretation" of their history and therefore going down the self-created-drain of darkness where there is always quarrel between this-vs-that. They just don't ever try to analyze the writings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and just solely goes with interpretations that follows their point of view instead of the other way around.
You could see the following different groups within Sikhs these days.
Group-1: This is the most popular and could easily be traced on Internet. Religious youth are its main force. This group treats the history (after 1699 - Khalsa creation) as the sole indicator. This group claims that their Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji but they do not bother to seriously analyze the writing of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the light in which it is written. They are so deeply concerned with the history after the creation of Khalsa (post 1699 or 1708) that they fail to see the history which took place between 1469 and 1699. They don't realize that they have neglected the history of 10 Gurus (around 230 years) and have just opted for the history of 10th Guru's last 9-10 years. They are just like other religious people who believe that their religion is the best. Group-2: This group mostly includes Scholars who have studied Guru Granth Sahib Ji deepy but from materialistic point of view. They are far better than the first group as they give importance to both the history periods. But their interpretation is more like Black-and-White world. They fail to see that the world where we live is domain of Laws and the teachings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji did not ask them to revolt against the Laws or reject the Laws. The teachings are merely pointing what is temporary vs what is permanent and how to get to the permanent while living in this world. But still they are far better than the first group. Group-3: Then comes a group who is a mixture of Group-1 and Group-2; sometimes they took one side and then sometimes took side of another group; not because they want to but they themselves are confused. Without the real Spiritual knowledge, they say things as per Group-2 but then eventually they will switch to Group-1. Group-4: This is the group who mostly have read the English transalations of Guru Granth Sahib Ji but not in the proper light. They try to reject all the rituals, traditions without understanding the real nature of this world. They are kind of more aggresive form of Group-2. They try to understand the higher concepts by dragging the higher concepts to their level of thinking instead of the other way around. They are always fighting with Group-1. Group-5: They are the rarest and rarely available on Internet. They do understand the real nature of this Universe and do understand that: "A person cannot live without performing the karmas. i.e one has to pick something out of the choices provided by the immediate environment.". They do see the core teachings of core Guru Granth Sahib Ji in proper light and therefore understand the purpose of Guru Granth Sahib Ji is to show us the proper path while living in this universe of Laws: Essence/Juice of all Scriptures (including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji): The following are the core ideas of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: 
Purity of Mind (Karma): This is the first requirement on spiritual path. Purity of mind is achieved by staying away from filthy and investing in good, honest actions. Why there is a need to pure the mind, and how the impure mind is hindrance to real happiness, and how to purify the mind etc. all these topics are including in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Concentration of Mind (Upsana): When mind is purified, then the desire for concentration arises in mind.  One-pointedness of Mind is achieved through worship with full concentration so that mind does not create ripples (thoughts) to disturb us. The concentration is achieved by devotion and worship. What is Concentration, why it is important, uses/mis-uses of concentration, importance of concentration, and how to achieve one - all these topics could be found in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Knowledge (Gyan): When the search of Self is done with purity and concentration of mind, one realises that the same God that once appeared as separate is one's own; in fact the entire universe appears to be one. There are various topics which could give one the real knowledge but in order to understand the real knowledge, one needs to be expert in the first 2 points and with the Kirpa of Guru (again explained in Guru Granth Sahib Ji).  Practically, the above mentioned juice could be obtained by (explained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)
Bodily Cleanliness (Isnan), Charity: Do charity to needy i.e Charity of money, goods, knowledge, time etc. Meditation  

Bro... Awareness comes from Naam simran. There is no other awareness that is better than that.
 
This is a scare tactic, fear- mongering.

This comes from a lack of naam simran.
Like on a larger scale - Bush saying
"the situation is bad in USA"
"Some terrorists are causing trouble"
"Hiding weapons of mass destruction"

Scaring people to wage war with other nations. You know how many innocent people died in those wars?
The so-called terrorists were trained by the US and UK, sold arms to by US companies.
You know they found no weapons of mass destruction?


These are lower states of consciousness. Lack of awareness (naam simran).
Fear of "pakhandi babey" is going to eat Sikhs alive; it is more harmful to Sikhs than the "pakhandi babey" themselves.

Remember that.
You go around putting labels of "Brahmgyani" on people's forehead and remove it from others.
Are you a brahmgyani?

How do you recognize a Brahmgyani?

How do you know who is fake and who is not?
Bro that's all you should be concerned with.
What is something you can learn from Baba Sawan Singh that will help you grow spiritually?

Paapiman
yaar tu changa banda haiga, tu kehde chakaran ch phas geya? kiven phas geya?
(You are a good guy, how did you get stuck in all this?)
You make good posts on gurbani vocabulary. That kind of stuff leads to higher states of consciousness. Awastha uchi hundi hai oh wale thread parh ke.