chatanga1

some questions that have been on my mind for a few moons:

Are Khusre alowed to take amrit?

Why do khusre always have to dress as women, when they are clearly not women?

Would Khusre be allowed to do sewa of Paath, kirtan or langar?

Are thier lives for for any spiritual purpose?

Should Sikhs give any priviledges to these people?


Thanks!!

i remember this case, Ricky was abused and chased after by a gang of white guys, yet the police couldnt find any racial element to it.

I don't know whether Painde Khan's funeral was done in accordance to Islamic rites or whether Guru Sahib performed agan sanskar for Painde Khan. Anyone know this?
The place where the funeral was done however is a very unimposing place and very neglected. This is heritage of Panjab but it seemed invisible to people going past it.
 
This is the actual structure of the funeral place. Could Painde Khan be buried here?
 

 
This building is right next to it. As you can see it is a very old building. And Gujjars were grazing their animals there!

 

And someone has the bright idea of painting on an advertisement there.

Gurbilas Patshahi 6 says nothing more than Guru Sahib defeating Painde Khan and then shielding him from the sun, whilst Painde Khan begged for forgiveness. I am adding the page for you to read and see if you can pick up anything I may have missed:
 

iran experienced a baby boom after the revolution as Khomieni encouraged iranians to get jiggy without contraceptives, and the population rocketed in a decade. 2 years ago, the iranian govt encouraged iranian couple to be more thoughtful about their procreating habits, as the current population and its growth since the revolution was overpowering the country's resources.

Neo the Khalistan movement brought out a lot of bravery and chivalry in many Sikhs. We have very good examples of Sukha/Jinda and their gang. Read about their exploits, you will be amazed. Then there were people like Avtar Singh Brahma, Toofan Singh and Arvinder Singh Goldy etc. I think the bravery and chivalry is still there in the Sikh psyche, but you have to take into account that wars are not fought aahmo-saamne anymore, and neither are the same weapons used.
If you look at the shaheedi of Bhai Avtar Singh Shattrana or Gurdev Singh Debu, you can see the spirit of the puratan Sikhs.

From my recollection the recording of katha /kirtan started with Sant Gurbachan Singh and Sant Ishar Singh Ji around the 1960s. Someone gave the Taksal a tape recorder and from then on the katha was recorded. Haven't heard anything before the 1960s.

From what Kam told me there was a lot of katha by Sant Gurbachan Singh at Chowk Mehta all recorded on spools. However because material like this needed to be kept in certain conditions a lot of it got ruined and unable to use.

Dammit. Another video I wanted to watch but this hindi is making my ears bleed.

Well done for standing up. It's a shame that sikh student groups like BOSS even, prefer to support vegetarianism rather than take a stand against halal.

agreed. there would have been some kind of acknowledgement of their existence if not study.

But if we use Sri Sarbloh as a reference, even up to 10 or 20 years ago, the overwhelmingly proportion of Sikhs have never seen this Granth. I remember once asking a Taskali, about this Granth, and he said he had never seen a saroop of it. Obviously with it being hidden in the Dals, people just wouldnt have access to it. So could there be any merit in the Patiala Uni having all these manuscripts? Only study of them will tell.

Just think, Amardeep or Dal, YOU could be the one(s) who brought these to the wider Sikh people.

I have been reading "Amritsar: The massacre that ended the Raj" about Jallianwala Bagh 1919. A really good book to learn about the attitudes of the rulers towards the ruled.

Great. I've had it for some time but have only glanced through it.

Well given that I was never here to "debunk" it, I still feel the same about it. I have the book, and it forms part of a larger book detailing the input of the Mazhabi Sikhs in the wider Sikh Panth. It is still a valuable source of information as a granth by itself. However the book...
 
You're right Dal. The book is written by Niranjab Singh Arifi, a Mazhabi Sikh himself who has at times vilified other castes. His whole other work in this book is just a inflammatory jibe at other castes and denigrating their service to the Panth at the expense of his own caste. I read the first chapter on Sri Gur Katha, which includes a translation, but the second chapter by Arifi is just horrendous.

From this:
It looks like you have already come to some conclusion. I hope it's not on the back of this topic and 10 posts either.
Let's do that before we make any aspertions on this text.
Kuttabanda is correct when he talks about how this text was approached here. "Debunking"?? That is not an honest way to enquire.

So you are saying that our first analysis of this text should be to debunk it? Rather than look at it and then see whether it it was it's claimed to be?

This guy khoj is a very coarse individual. He made this topic and now that you mention it, the word "debunking" in the title makes it apparent what his intentions were/are. Nevertheless if you read our replies to it, we haven't agreed with him in any way, we have just listened to his views. It would be good if maybe in the short future we could look at one or two chapters in this book.

http://www.academia.edu/2026548/_Bhai_Jaitas_epic_Sri_Gur_Katha_a_New_Milestone_in_the_Sikh_Literature_paper_for_Hofstra_University_Conference


i was reading this paper, and it made quite a good point, in that the history in it is only written upto 1704, the year of Bhai Jeevan Singhs shaheedi.

Although it could be presented as such, if the "author" wanted to make it seem like Bhai Jeevan Singh had writtten it himself.

Its quite interesting.


Ok, so how far have we got with the above project, given that its almost 9 months from the last post before mine?

Interesting Bhaji, can you tell us who dont know, how this would differ from puratan text, as I cant tell the difference. Reading the above doesnt seem to be too different to the style of Sri Dasam Granth.

​ok, but i'm sure that if a goat can find certain passages in a book babay can do a lot more.

I'm not being a d!ck here but I genuinely hope you do one day go to India and actually study under the schools there, I actually believe you could be the perfect fit to teach Dharmic stuff to the west due to your knowledge of Abrahmic religions, something that is lacking in alot of scholars studying in various dharmic sikhi schools. I actually really enjoy your posts, you're one of my favourite posters here and I love the comparisons you draw to actual pre-Constantine Christianity. You're just way off base here.
Sikhi to the max is known to be full of errors. You start seeing them once you understand bani more. People have contacted them, they just ignore it.

No, you posted a faulty translation. Then built a case around it. 
People get these ideas because no one yet has done a proper Sampardayic english translation of Sri Dasam Granth. The translations done are done by those who haven't done santhiya or taken proper Vidya in the granth. I'd much rather trust someone like Giani Harbhajan Singh Ji who spent his entire life studying Gurmat Granths than some internet dude with spare time.
I've posted Gurbani, I even retranslated what you said. How much more spoonfeeding should I do?
I swear, I never called you a missionary, I said you're employing the same tactics they use except in reverse.
yes, that's why Bhagat Naamdev Ji  critised her and said "why do you hide when Salvation needs to be done". She's a sweeper of Paramatma's door, she takes the dust from there to granth boons (reference- Nanak prakash). Brahma literallyyyyyy went to her, asked for her to take his curse away and she flat out said I cant and he needs to do Bhakti. To even suggest that Guru Sahib would worship or tell Sikhs its ok to worship someone like that is just plain stupid.
There's an exact sakhi about the nonsense you're trying to propagate. A man saw a bunch of Sants doing Hari bhajan and told them they should worship Devi. So they told him go and ask her for salvation. He went away and did his meditation, she appears before him and he asks her. She flat out says, I don't have the power for that. So he left her charan and left her. He even rebuked her with the a similar line to Bhagat Naamdev Ji (reference- Gurbani Arth Bhandar). 
Gurbani you know nothing about. This is why we have so many problems in the panth. People like you who have no education in the Granths, turning to people who also dont have any education who then write faulty translations and then you take them as gospel. 
What scholar? Please list his name. Is a bigger Scholar than Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji? Sant Ji is known as Vidya Martand and many prominent scholars all studied under him. How about Baba Teja Singh Mehron Wale? He studied under 3 different Sikh gyani schools (Taksal, Nirmale and Nihangs) and even his Teeka refers to a difference between Durga and Adi Shakti. Giani Harbhajan Singh Ji studied up Taksal too. But noooo all these prominent purakhs who spent their entire life researching Granths are all failures and you alone have stumbled onto the truth by reading one translation that was clumsily done.
So don't get into these discussions about things you're not familiar with, I dont do any form of discussion about Sri sarbloh Granth as I have no knowledge of it and haven't been blessed with its Santhiya and katha yet. You can't read Gurmukhi or understand Gurbani but you're sitting here drawing up daft theories. You're the exact definition of a Khaapi Sikh.
The videos are from Eminent scholars of the Panth. If you dont want to listen to their views and want to stick to your own manmat then go nuts.
I'm pretty calm here, I just find it hilarious how the khoj that Sikhawareness was known for is now people refusing to read the Gurbani and relying on translations. Hilarious.

I quoted this ALL from Gurbani, This was from Rama Avtar written by Guru Gobind SIngh Ji. I quoted Chandi Di Vaar from Dasam Granth, Iv posted katha from learned scholars on this, even one done by a Kathavach from Buddha Dal. But no, they're all wrong. You're translations are 100% right. I'm asking again, can you read and translate Gurbani? Can you read the Gurmukhi Script? Why wouldn't that be a logical discussion? If you want to discuss the Quran, go learn it in its original script. I say the exact same thing about Gurmukhi. 
I said you were doing WHAT the missionaries do, not that you were. Missionaries purposely translate certain words to mean a Devta and then use it to discredit Dasam Bani. You're doing the same, the only difference is you're not using it to discredit the bani but to propagate that Guru Sahib said Chandi is worth doing Pooja of.
Iv had Santhiya of Dasam and Adi Bani. I've already shown you quotes where Durga cant grant Salvations. Like I said she's a Lehar (a wave) of Adi SHakti, not its Sargun form. The Sargun form of Adi Shakti is the Khanda. He didn't worship Durga but was worshipping Akaal Shakti, same way Guru sahib doesn't worship Ram Chandar Ji but Ram (the all pervading God). There's plenty of nuance, you won't understand it until you've had proper education on this. Do you want me to post Katha from more learned scholars? Did you listen to Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji's katha? or even Bhai Surjeet Singh Ji? He's a nihang who was taught katha and santhiya of the bani by Buddha Dal. But let me guess, he's also wrong? 
This isn't an issue with between myself and Guru Sahib. The issue is you're misrepresenting his bani using translations and then backing off because you're position isn't held by any other esteemed Scholar.
Quote frankly, I don't have the time to sit down and retranslate a bani. So post stuff you want retranslated, providing i have the time. There's plenty of people here who can do some form of translations @chatanga1 @dalsingh101 can help you . But the fact you can't read it is worrying, especially when you're on this forum trying to discuss it.  Why are you flitting around the subject? Can you read Gurmukhi or not?
I'll do you better. Here's the verse before it too, Brahma got cursed for being arrogant. After he got cursed, he meditated on God and Akaash bani told him to do Bhakti and Jaap. Brahma then went and fell at the feet of Chandi, here's what she said.
ਪਰਿ ਪਾਇ ਚੰਡਿ ਪ੍ਰਚੰਡ ॥  ਜਿਹ ਮੰਡ ਦੁਸਟ ਅਖੰਡ ॥
(Brahma) Fell at the feel of the illustrious Chandi, the one who cut cut the demon Mund into many pieces.
ਜ੍ਵਾਲਾਛ ਲੋਚਨ ਧੂਮ ॥
The one who killed Jawalash (a demon with red eyes), Lochan Doom (he could produce smoke that could blow up mountains). 
ਹਨਿ ਜਾਸੁ ਡਾਰੇ ਭੂਮਿ ॥੨੮॥
With Great Vigour, she killed them and threw them onto the earth.
ਤਿਸੁ ਜਾਪਿ ਹੋ ਜਬ ਜਾਪ ॥
(Chandi responded) By doing Jaap (meditating), and on its completion.
ਤਬ ਹੋਇ ਪੂਰਨ ਸ੍ਰਾਪ ॥
Then your curse will be complete (i.e lifted).
ਉਠਿ ਲਾਗ ਕਾਲ ਜਪੰਨ ॥
So Brahma got up and meditated on the Supreme Destroyer Lord (Kaal).
ਹਠਿ ਤਿਆਗ ਆਵ ਸਰੰਨ ॥੨੯॥
By forsaking everything else, he entered the refugee of Akaal.
So here's Chandi telling Brahma to go and worship God. He tried your method and it completely failed, he went to worship her and she rebuked him and told him to go do Seva of Waheguru. She couldn't do anything to lift his curse. Here's a reference which again backs my translation up. 
https://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Giani_Harbhajan_Singh_Dhudhikey_(Vidyarthi_Sampardai_Bhindra)/Sri_Dasam_Guru_Granth_Sahib_Ji_Katha/10_Brahma_Avtar_Katha/Giani.Harbhajan.Singh.Dhudhikey.(Vidyarthi.Sampardai.Bhindra)--333.-.Brahma.Avtar.Katha.02.mp3 from 15:00
I'll assume you can't understand Punjabi by the look of things, I'll tell you what is said by this scholar. He says that Devi is the servant of Akaal Purakh, she gets her power from doing his seva by sweeping his floors. She also kills her own followers if they harm anyone who worships Akaal Purakh. He includes Sakhis in there of various people seeing Devi sweeping Guru Sahib's floor. He recites times of 1st Master, 2nd Master and also 9th Master where she came to do Seva of Maharaj. He's also a Sampardayic scholar. Done Katha on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, full katha on Dasam Garnth Ji and also on Suraj Prakash, Bhai Gurdas Ji vaaran. I could go on. 
Here's the tukh about Vishnu. Some background since you can't read the bani. Brahma spent 10 lakh years doing Bhakti of Akaal Purakh Ji and eventually Akaal Purakh Ji spoke to him, telling him that he fell out of favour due to his arrogance and he needs to assume various incarnations to redeem himself.
Here's the tukh regarding Vishnu. 
ਇਕ ਕਹੋ ਔਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥ ਸੁਨਿ ਲੇਹੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੁਮਾਰ ॥੩੬॥
Listen to one more thing Brahma my son.
ਇਕ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮੋਹਿ ਧਿਆਨ ॥ ਬਹੁ ਸੇਵਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਰਿਝਾਨ ॥
There is Vishnu who meditated on me, he did alot of Seva (service) and this pleased me.
ਤਿਨਿ ਮਾਗਿਆ ਬਰ ਐਸ ॥ ਮਮ ਦੀਨ ਤਾ ਕਹੁ ਤੈਸ ॥੩੭॥
 He asked for a boon, that which I granted and will tell you.
ਮਮ ਤਾਸ ਭੇਦ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥ ਸਬ ਲੋਕ ਜਾਨਤ ਸੋਇ ॥
He asked that people know that there is no difference between us.
ਤਿਹ ਜਾਨ ਹੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ॥ ਸਬ ਲੋਕ ਅਲੋਕ ਪਹਾਰ ॥੩੮॥
He asked that People know him to be the creator, that people in this world, the unseen world and the people who reside in mountains.
https://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Giani_Harbhajan_Singh_Dhudhikey_(Vidyarthi_Sampardai_Bhindra)/Sri_Dasam_Guru_Granth_Sahib_Ji_Katha/10_Brahma_Avtar_Katha/Giani.Harbhajan.Singh.Dhudhikey.(Vidyarthi.Sampardai.Bhindra)--333.-.Brahma.Avtar.Katha.02.mp3
From 22:00.
I have told you. You keep purposely using the translation in the final stanza to mean Durga Devi, when its a reference to Akaal Purakh Ji or Akaal Shakti. There's multiple translation of the word "Durga". 

The language in the 52 hukams seems way too modern. This kind of Panjabi was not in use in Guru's era or soon after. This seems to be more like post Singh Sabha era.
 
 
I wouldn't say that is a rule as much of the literature in that era was written in poetry. Some of the rehitnamas are written as such.

I never said anything about oldest sources or newest sources so please be careful of the words you choose.

"Chatanga is claiming"... what? I said I heard in his katha talk of it. I never said he he based on Gyani Ji's assertion.

I said, and I made it crystal clear the first time, that according to Sant Gurbachan Singh, Giani Gian Singh wrote in Twarikh Guru Khalsa that Guru Ji had 8 wives. Now Gurbachan Singh didn't say whether this was to be accepted. He said further that some scholars believed that Guru Ji had 4 wives and each wife brought a maid with them.

Gurbachan Singh never said either of the two were fact, he said (and i repeat it for a third time for your malicious mind) that ACCORDING to these scholars...

Just because you paraphrase someone it doesn't mean you believe it yourself. You know this and I know you know this but seem intent on making very derisive statements.