Devi Pargat By Guru Gobind Singh?

[shaheediyan]

"As an amritdhari I went to visit a Hindu sant and had a spiritual experience that threw me very far out of the AKJ. What else do you want to know?"

Bhenji, would you be kind enough to share, if not over the forum then over PM...?

[laalsingh]

However, everything really is God. These distinctions that we're making exist only in sansaar due to duality consciousness. We see in pieces and not the Whole. And so our understanding is flawed. A true sant worships the One Divine Reality pervading all things, and not the parcels and shadows.

Now we all agree on devtays. That is exactly what I am saying. Devteys and avtars are pieces, not whole. You are alright.

(except Devi stuff you got from that hindu sant).

[Kaljug]

As the concept of Devi as the Divine expansion, meaning Divine Mother as Nirguna AND sarguna represents that She, in this aspect is none other than AKAAL.

With due respect, this sounds like nothing but an attempt to bring Hindumat into Gurmat through the back door.

Gurbani and Dasam Granth in particular is very clear that avatars like Krishan were full of ego who asked their devotees to worship them.

Devi worshippers see Devi as identical with Nirguna Brahman, Vaishnavs say the same thing about Krishan, Shaivites say that Shiva is Sadashiv himself. None of these views are in line with Gurbani.

As to your claims that Singh Sabha was an attempt to rid Sikhi of its "Sanatan" heritage, it was Dasmesh Pita Himself who said

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

What greater rejection of Sanatanmat could there be?

K.

[Balbir Singh]

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Kaljug Jee!

Thanks for quoting Guru Gobind Singh Jee's Vaak.

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

Please explain that you have understood from the above.

*****

I had a curiosity to know the answer that came in my mind after reading it.

You may read it by clicking the link below.

http://www.saysatsriakal.com/persuading-ganesha.htm

It would be great to hear a convincing explanation of it from you or any mastermind professor.

*****

Harjas Kaur Jee!

Thanks for not taking it as critic.

Balbir Singh

[Xylitol]

I recommend you go speak to Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal about your views. I would be interested in hearing what he says.

[Kaljug]

http://www.saysatsriakal.com/persuading-ganesha.htm

It would be great to hear a convincing explanation of it from you or any mastermind professor.

Take my advice and get santhiya.

I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them.

K.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Kaljug

[Mithar]

Since the Singh Sabha have taken a razor and cut off the legitimacy of sanataan sampradayas, then your statement makes sense. But apart from the radical rejection of traditional sanataan sampradayas which actually do share some beliefs and interpretations with me, then your comment is false.

Which sampradahs are you refering to? and which of those sampradhays agree with your interpretation?

[singh2]

There are various sects in Hinduism and Harjas kaur ji refers to them often.For example Vasihnavism considers Vishnu and his avatars as absolute God.Shavite considers shiva as supreme God.

In the same was worshippers of Durga consider her as absolute supreme Goddess.

Sikhism reject above teachings.Sikhism describe these deities as creation of akal purakh.Hence these deities are subservient to akal purakh.

Guru sahib writes

ਭਜੋਂ ਸੁ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਮਯੰ ॥

I recite only the Name of the Lord, which is useful at all places. (Bachittar Natak)

ਨ ਧਿਆਨ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਨਾਮ ਆਨ ਉਚਰੋਂ ॥38॥

I do not meditate on anyone else, nor do I repeat the Name of anyone else. ||38|| (Bachittar Natak)

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

The goddess Durga takes refuge at the feet of Eternal and abides there.

Dasam Granth sahib

* ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਹੈ ਜਾਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥੧ (ਸ. ਹਜਾਰੇ)

* Ram and Rahim whose names you are uttering cant save you. Brahma, Vishnu Shiva, Sun and Moon, all are subject to the power of Death.1.

Dasam granth sahib

* ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਔ ਬਿਸਨ ਜਪੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਭਲੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਿਆਯੋ ॥

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜਪਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਸੰਭੁ ਥਪਿਓ ਤਿਹ ਤੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥

……..ਤੋਹਿ ਬਚਾਇ ਸਕੈ ਕਹੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਕੈ ਆਪਨ ਘਾਵ ਬਚਾਇ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥

ਕੋਪ ਕਰਾਲ ਕੀ ਪਾਵਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੈ ਆਪ ਟੰਗਿਓ ਤਿਮ ਤੋਹਿ ਟੰਗੈਹੈ ॥

* Thou hast meditated on millions of Krishnas, Vishnus, Ramas and Rahims.

Thou hast recited the name of Brahma and established Shivalingam, even then none could save thee…….

They cannot save themselves from the blow of death, how can they protect thee?

They are all hanging in the blazing fire of anger, therefore they will cause thy hanging similarly.

Dasam granth sahib

[jvalasingh]

"As an amritdhari I went to visit a Hindu sant and had a spiritual experience that threw me very far out of the AKJ. What else do you want to know?"

Bhenji, would you be kind enough to share, if not over the forum then over PM...?

please do share with me as well

[Balbir Singh]

I recommend you go speak to Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal about your views. I would be interested in hearing what he says.

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Xylitol Jee!

Thanks for your suggestion. Please convey my Satsriakaal to him. You may speak to him on Rest.

*****

Kaljug Jee!

Does manaau means adore?

May I ask why have you not translated the last part of this Vaak?

You wrote "I do not adore Ganesha in the beginning . . . "

May I ask when then if not in the beginning?

Quote " . . . and also do not mediatate on Krishna and Vishnu;"

But Gurdev often suggests meditating on Hari.

Quote "I have only heard about them with my ears and I do not recognize them."

First Naam is heard. They do not have recognition.

ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

Liv laagee moree pag in saon.

Through ears listen. And liv laagee moree in their feet.

*****

Singh2 Jee!

You wrote "Sikhism reject above teachings."

Sick preachers are producing fools.

True Sikhi is all about accepting not rejecting. What one can reject when he has accepted God's Hukam?

Thanks for referring the wonderful Vaaks from Gurdev. We may get a chance to have Satsang on it.

In my view, the translations you have provided are misleading. The true seeker is not longing for such matters. True Seeker is thirsty and needs Raam Ras. It may not be possible if the Seeker gets convinced by your translation "Ram and Rahim whose names you are uttering cant save you."

Balbir Singh

[HarjasDevi]

With due respect, this sounds like nothing but an attempt to bring Hindumat into Gurmat through the back door.

Even as entire history, language, and heritage of Shishyas of Guru Nanak were from within the Hindumat orientation? Even as the very terms and concepts within Gurmat are from the Hindumat orientation? Even as the definitions of God, devatay, avtaray, mukti, reincarnation, khands/lokas, imagery: 4 arms, blue skin, conch, chakr, lotus, etc all originate from Hindumat?

How is it then you feel free to pick and choose only certain concepts from Hindumat, as if you could alter them enough to stick a Sikh label on while loudly blaring Hindumat is false? What part of Hindumat exactly is false? The distortions you and the Singh Sabhias claim Hindumat to be? Have I not already shown you, from Hindumat, that Hindumat doesn't teach worship of the devatay? Yet, every time you want to distinguish Sikhism from Hindumat, you make the same worn out false allegations. It's beyond obvious that Guruji was well versed and understood the Hindu scriptures and their mystery teachings. As it is equally clear Guruji incorporated those same philosophical concepts into Gurmat.

Gurbani and Dasam Granth in particular is very clear that avatars like Krishan were full of ego who asked their devotees to worship them.

Is that simplistic travesty of an interpretation actually the teaching of Bhagavan Krishan? Or was it the bani of an avatara explaining the transcendence of the Divine as nirguna aspect from perspective of having brahmgyaan, where He was merged with the Divine nature?

BG 7.4: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.

BG 7.5: Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.

BG 7.6: All created beings have their source in these two natures. Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, know for certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

BG 7.7: O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

BG 7.8: O son of Kuntī, I am the taste of water, the light of the sun and the moon, the syllable oḿ in the Vedic mantras; I am the sound in ether and ability in man.

BG 7.9: I am the original fragrance of the earth, and I am the heat in fire. I am the life of all that lives, and I am the penances of all ascetics.

BG 7.10: O son of Pṛthā, know that I am the original seed of all existences, the intelligence of the intelligent, and the prowess of all powerful men.

BG 7.11: I am the strength of the strong, devoid of passion and desire. I am sex life which is not contrary to religious principles, O lord of the Bhāratas [Arjuna].

BG 7.12: Know that all states of being — be they of goodness, passion or ignorance — are manifested by My energy. I am, in one sense, everything, but I am independent. I am not under the modes of material nature, for they, on the contrary, are within Me.

BG 7.13: Deluded by the three modes [goodness, passion and ignorance], the whole world does not know Me, who am above the modes and inexhaustible.

BG 7.14: This divine energy of Mine, consisting of the three modes of material nature, is difficult to overcome. But those who have surrendered unto Me can easily cross beyond it.

BG 7.15: Those miscreants who are grossly foolish, who are lowest among mankind, whose knowledge is stolen by illusion, and who partake of the atheistic nature of demons do not surrender unto Me.

BG 7.16: O best among the Bhāratas, four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me — the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.

BG 7.17: Of these, the one who is in full knowledge and who is always engaged in pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me.

BG 7.18: All these devotees are undoubtedly magnanimous souls, but he who is situated in knowledge of Me I consider to be just like My own self. Being engaged in My transcendental service, he is sure to attain Me, the highest and most perfect goal.

BG 7.19: After many births and deaths, he who is actually in knowledge surrenders unto Me, knowing Me to be the cause of all causes and all that is. Such a great soul is very rare.

BG 7.20: Those whose intelligence has been stolen by material desires surrender unto demigods and follow the particular rules and regulations of worship according to their own natures.

BG 7.21: I am in everyone's heart as the Supersoul. As soon as one desires to worship some demigod, I make his faith steady so that he can devote himself to that particular deity.

BG 7.22: Endowed with such a faith, he endeavors to worship a particular demigod and obtains his desires. But in actuality these benefits are bestowed by Me alone.

BG 7.23: Men of small intelligence worship the demigods, and their fruits are limited and temporary. Those who worship the demigods go to the planets of the demigods, but My devotees ultimately reach My supreme planet.

BG 7.24: Unintelligent men, who do not know Me perfectly, think that I, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Kṛṣṇa, was impersonal before and have now assumed this personality. Due to their small knowledge, they do not know My higher nature, which is imperishable and supreme.

BG 7.25: I am never manifest to the foolish and unintelligent. For them I am covered by My internal potency, and therefore they do not know that I am unborn and infallible.

It isn't Krishan the physical avatar speaking, but the expansion of the One eternal Narayana.

Edited January 23, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[HarjasDevi]

Devi worshippers see Devi as identical withNirguna Brahman, Vaishnavssay the same thing about Krishan, Shaivitessay that Shiva is Sadashiv himself. None of these views are in line with Gurbani.

Really?

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥

bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||

You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥

gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||

The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||

O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥

eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||

The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥

aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||

Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 469

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹੈ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥੬॥

vaddaa saahib hai aap alakh apaaraa ||6||

The Great Lord Master is unfathomable and infinite. ||6||

ਤੇਰੇ ਬੰਕੇ ਲੋਇਣ ਦੰਤ ਰੀਸਾਲਾ ॥

thaerae bankae loein dhanth reesaalaa ||

Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.

ਸੋਹਣੇ ਨਕ ਜਿਨ ਲੰਮੜੇ ਵਾਲਾ ॥

sohanae nak jin lanmarrae vaalaa ||

Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.

ਕੰਚਨ ਕਾਇਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਕੀ ਢਾਲਾ ॥

kanchan kaaeiaa sueinae kee dtaalaa ||

Your body is so precious, cast in gold.

ਸੋਵੰਨ ਢਾਲਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਪਹੁ ਤੁਸੀ ਸਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥

sovann dtaalaa kirasan maalaa japahu thusee sehaeleeho ||

His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.

ਜਮ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਹੁ ਖੜੀਆ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਮਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥

jam dhuaar n hohu kharreeaa sikh sunahu mehaeleeho ||

You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.

~SGGS Ji ang 567

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥

kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||

Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥

pehil purasaabiraa ||

First of all, there was only the Primal Being.

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥

athhon purasaadhamaraa ||

From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥

asagaa as ousagaa ||

All that is, is His.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਬਾਗਰਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਪਿੰਧੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਗਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

har kaa baagaraa naachai pindhhee mehi saagaraa ||1|| rehaao ||

In this Garden of the Lord, we all dance, like water in the pots of the Persian wheel. ||1||Pause||

ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥

naachanthee gopee jannaa ||

Women and men both dance.

ਨਈਆ ਤੇ ਬੈਰੇ ਕੰਨਾ ॥

neeaa thae bairae kannaa ||

There is no other than the Lord.

ਤਰਕੁ ਨ ਚਾ ॥

tharak n chaa ||

Don't dispute this,

ਭ੍ਰਮੀਆ ਚਾ ॥

bhrameeaa chaa ||

and don't doubt this.

ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

kaesavaa bachounee aeeeae meeeae eaek aan jeeo ||2||

The Lord says, ""This creation and I are one and the same."

~SGGS Ji ang 693

ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਗੁਨੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਈ ਪੜਿ ਸੂਆ ਗਨਕ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥

sangath kaa gun bahuth adhhikaaee parr sooaa ganak oudhhaarae ||

The virtues of the Sangat, the Holy Congregation, are so very great. Even the prostitute was saved,

by teaching the parrot to speak the Lord's Name.

What was the NAAM the prostitute Ganaka taught the parrot to speak? It was Ram.

ਪਰਸ ਨਪਰਸ ਭਏ ਕੁਬਿਜਾ ਕਉ ਲੈ ਬੈਕੁੰਠਿ ਸਿਧਾਰੇ ॥੧॥

paras naparas bheae kubijaa ko lai baikunth sidhhaarae ||1||

Krishna was pleased, and so he touched the hunch-back Kubija, and she was transported to the heavens.

It wasn't "heavens" as English has rendered, it was Vaikunth, abode of the Lord Vishnu.

ਅਜਾਮਲ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ਕੀਨੀ ਕਰਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਬੋਲਾਰੇ ॥

ajaamal preeth puthr prath keenee kar naaraaein bolaarae ||

Ajaamal loved his son Naaraayan, and called out his name.

ਮੇਰੇ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕੈ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਮਾਰਿ ਬਿਦਾਰੇ ॥੨॥

maerae thaakur kai man bhaae bhaavanee jamakankar maar bidhaarae ||2||

His loving devotion pleased my Lord and Master, who struck down and drove off the Messengers of Death.

~SGGS Ji ang 981

Ajamal was saved from the jams by pronouncing the NAAM Narayana. Who is Narayana in this famous story?

"Narayana (Sanskrit: नारायण; nārāyaṇa) or Narayan is an important Sanskrit name for Vishnu, and in many contemporary vernaculars a common Indian name. Narayana is also identified as the original man, Purusha. The Puranas present divergent views on Narayana. In the Kurma Purana he is identified with Brahman and Krishna-Vishnu, but in the Brahma Vaivarta Purana Narayana is considered different from Krishna and also considered part of Krishna...

InSanskrit, another name for water is 'Naara'. The Supreme LordVishnu whose resting place ('Ayana') is 'Naara' is therefore calledNaarayana."Naara" also means the living entities (Jivas). Therefore,another meaning of Naarayana is 'resting place for all livingentities. The close association of Narayana with water explains thefrequent depiction of Narayana in Hindu art as standing or sitting on anocean.Another important translation of Narayana is "The supreme Man who is the foundation of all men." Narayana

As to your claims that Singh Sabha was an attempt to rid Sikhi of its "Sanatan" heritage, it was Dasmesh Pita Himself who said

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥

What greater rejection of Sanatanmat could there be?

ਤੁਹੀ ਰਾਜਸੀ ਸਾਤਕੀ ਤਾਮਸੀ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਬਾਲਕਾ ਬਿੱ੍ਰਧਣੀ ਅਉ ਜੁਆ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਦਾਨਵੀ ਦੇਵਣੀ ਜੱਛਣੀ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਿੰਨ੍ਰਣੀ ਮੱਛਣੀ ਕੱਛਣੀ ਹੈ ॥੪੨੮॥ तुही राजसी सातकी तामसी है ॥ तुही बालका बि्रधणी अउ जुआ है ॥ तुही दानवी देवणी ज्छणी है ॥ तुही किंन्रणी म्छणी क्छणी है ॥४२८॥

Thou art Rajas, tamas and Sattva, the three modes of maya; Thou art the three ages of life i.e. childhood, youth and old age; Thou art demoness, goddess and Dakshini; Thou art also Kinnar-woman, fish-girt and Kashyap-woman.428.

ਤੁਹੀ ਦੇਵਤੇਸ਼ੇਸ਼ਣੀ ਦਾਨਵੇਸਾ ॥ ਸਰਹ ਬ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਟਣੀ ਹੈ ਤੁਹੀ ਅਸਤ੍ਰ ਭੇਸਾ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਰਾਜ ਰਾਜੇਸ਼੍ਵਰੀ ਜੋਗ ਮਾਯਾ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਮੋਹ ਸੋ ਚਉਦਹੂੰ ਲੋਕ ਛਾਯਾ ॥੪੨੯॥ तुही देवतेशेशणी दानवेसा ॥ सरह ब्रिशटणी है तुही असत्र भेसा ॥ तुही राज राजेश्वरी जोग माया ॥ महा मोह सो चउदहूं लोक छाया ॥४२९॥

Thou art the power of gods and the vision of the demons; Thou art the steel-striker and wielder of arms; Thou art Rajrajeshwari and Yogmaya and there is the prevalence of your maya in all the fourteen worlds.429.

ਤੁਹੀਬ੍ਰਾਹਮੀਬੈਸ਼ਨਵੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਬਾਸਵੀ ਈਸ਼੍ਵਰੀ ਕਾਰਤਕਯਾਨੀ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਅੰਬਕਾਦੁਸ਼ਟਹਾ ਮੁੰਡਮਾਲੀ ॥ ਤੁਹੀ ਕਸ਼ਟ ਹੰਤੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲੀ ॥੪੩੦॥ तुहीब्राहमीबैशनवी स्री भवानी ॥ तुही बासवी ईश्वरी कारतकयानी ॥ तुही अमबकादुशटहा मुंडमाली ॥ तुही कशट हंती क्रिपा कै क्रिपाली ॥४३०॥

Thou art the power the of Brahmani, Vaishnavi, Bhavani, Basavi, Parvati and Kartikeya; Thou art Ambika and the wearer of the necklace of skulls; O Goddess! Thou art the destroyer of the sufferings of all and also gracious towards all.430.

ਤੁਮੀਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹਿਰੰਨਾਛ ਮਾਰਯੋ ॥ ਹਰੰਨਾਕਸ਼ੰ ਸਿੰਘਣੀ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਪਛਾਰਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਬਾਵਨੀਹ੍ਵੈ ਤਿਨੋ ਲੋਗ ਮਾਪੇ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਦੇਵ ਦਾਨੋ ਕੀਏ ਜੱਛ ਥਾਪੇ ॥੪੩੧॥ तुमीब्राहमणी ह्वै हिरंनाछ मारयो ॥ हरंनाकशं सिंघणी ह्वै पछारयो ॥ तुमी बावनीह्वै तिनो लोग मापे ॥ तुमी देव दानो कीए ज्छ थापे ॥४३१॥

As the power of Brahm and as the lion, Thou didst overthrow Hiranyakashipu;Thou didst measure the three worlds as the power of Vaman and Thou didst establish the gods, demons and Yakshas.431.

ਤੁਮੀਰਾਮਹ੍ਵੈਕੈ ਦਸਾਗ੍ਰੀਵ ਖੰਡਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਕੰਸ ਕੇਸੀ ਬਿਹੰਡਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀਜਾਲਪਾਹ੍ਵੈ ਬਿੜਾਲਾਛ ਘਾਯੋ ॥ ਤੁਮੀ ਸੁੰਭ ਸੁੰਭ ਨੈਸੁੰਭ ਦਾਨੋ ਖਪਾਯੋ ॥੪੩੨॥ तुमीरामह्वैकै दसाग्रीव खंडयो ॥ तुमी क्रिशन ह्वै कंस केसी बिहंडयो ॥ तुमीजालपाह्वै बिड़ालाछ घायो ॥ तुमी सु्मभ सु्मभ नैसु्मभ दानो खपायो ॥४३२॥

Thou didst kill Ravana as Ram; Thou didst kill the demon Keshi as Krishna;Thou didst annihilate the demon Biraksha as Jalapa and Thou didst destroy the demons Sumbh and Nisumbh.432.

ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ दोहरा ॥

DOHRA

ਦਾਸ ਜਾਨ ਕਰਿ ਦਾਸ ਪਰਿ ਕੀਜੈ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਹਾਥ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਦੈ ਰਾਖ ਮੁਹਿ ਮਨ ਕ੍ਰਮ ਬਚਨ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੩॥ दास जान करि दास परि कीजै क्रिपा अपार ॥ हाथ दै राख दै राख मुहि मन क्रम बचन बिचार ॥४३३॥

Considering me as Thy slave, be Gracius towards me and keep Thy hand over my head and protect me with Thy mind, action, speech and thought.433.

ਚੌਪਈ ॥ चौपई ॥

CHUPAI

ਮੈ ਨ ਗਨੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮ ਮਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਕਿਸ਼ਨ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਕਬਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਧਿਆਊਂ ॥ਕਾਨ ਸੁਨੇ ਪਹਿਚਾਨ ਨ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ॥ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੀ ਮੋਰੀ ਪਗ ਇਨ ਸੋਂ ॥੪੩੪॥ मै न गनेशहि प्रिथम मनाऊं ॥ किशन बिशन कबहूं नह धिआऊं ॥कान सुने पहिचान न तिन सों ॥ लिव लागी मोरी पग इन सों ॥४३४॥

Idonot adore Ganesha in the beginning and also do not mediatate on Krishnaand Vishnu; I have only heard about them with my ears and I do notrecognize them; my consciousness is absorbed at the feet of the Supreme Kal.434.

ਮਹਾਕਾਲ ਰਖਵਾਰ ਹਮਾਰੋ ॥ ਮਹਾ ਲੋਹ ਮੈਂ ਕਿੰਕਰ ਥਾਰੋ ॥ ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਕਰੋ ਰਖਵਾਰ ॥ ਬਾਹਿ ਗਹੇ ਕੀ ਲਾਜ ਬਿਚਾਰ ॥੪੩੫॥ महाकाल रखवार हमारो ॥ महा लोह मैं किंकर थारो ॥ अपना जान करो रखवार ॥ बाहि गहे की लाज बिचार ॥४३५॥

The Supreme Kal is my Protector and O Steel-Purusha Lord ! I am Thy slave; Protect me, considering me as Thy own and do me the honour of catching my arm.435.

ਅਪਨਾ ਜਾਨ ਮੁਝੇ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਰੀਐ ॥ ਚੁਨ ਚੁਨ ਸ਼ੱਤੁ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਮਰੀਐ ॥ ਦੇਗ ਤੇਗ ਜਗ ਮੈ ਦੋਊ ਚਲੈ ॥ ਰਾਖ ਆਪ ਮੁਹਿ ਅਉਰੁ ਨ ਦਲੈ ॥੪੩੬॥ अपना जान मुझे प्रतिपरीऐ ॥ चुन चुन श्तु हमारे मरीऐ ॥ देग तेग जग मै दोऊ चलै ॥ राख आप मुहि अउरु न दलै ॥४३६॥

Sustainme, considering me as Thy own and destroy my enemies, picking them up;OLord with Thy Grace, let the free kitchen and Sword ever flourishthrough me and none should be able to kill me except You.436.

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) p. 733

Whatkind of "rejection" starts by saying the eternal GOD is in the threegunas, rajo, samo, tatto and hence pervading within the three mahadevasBrahma, Shiva, Vishnu, in the devas and asuras, and in the Das Avtarasand the Great Maha Devi?

Whose NAAMS are called as Supreme Lord direct from Puranas?

And whose NAAM of KAL is in fact Kali aspect of Chandi aspect of Eternal Devi?

Please explain the rejection. Since, if there was a true "rejection" God would not be called Hari, Narayana, Keshava, Krishna, Murali, Jagannatha, Gopala, Kal, etc. What you keep failing to realize is Sanatana Dharma teaches the exact same interpretation as Guru ji's bani! All these are temporary forms, manifestations of the One Eternal Unity. But that Eternal One is all-pervading all these forms and greater than these forms. And hence, there cannot be rejection of that through which the Divine is Himself manifesting.

Rejection means, rejection. How can bani say The One eternal Lord is manifesting as das avataras, and at same time avataray are "rejected?" Whatis "rejected" is the limitation of the sargun form for worship, andassertion, in line with Puranas that the Nirgun is Supreme.

NOTHING contradicts or rejects Vaishnavmat. Yourclaim of rejection fails when in same breath we recite bani calling theEternal Divine as NAAMS of avtaray and devatay who are supposed to be"rejected." Only explanation is direct from teaching of Puranas, thatthe Supreme has become all the manifestations. Just as it says inGurbani.

[Kaljug]

Even as entire history, language, and heritage of Shishyas of Guru Nanak were from within the Hindumat orientation? Even as the very terms and concepts within Gurmat are from the Hindumat orientation? Even as the definitions of God, devatay, avtaray, mukti, reincarnation, khands/lokas, imagery: 4 arms, blue skin, conch, chakr, lotus, etc all originate from Hindumat?

And what religion has not come and commented on its predecessors? It's ridiculous to assert that there is no difference between Hindumat and Gurmat simply because Gurbani utilises the language of the time and comments on the practices of the day.

How is it then you feel free to pick and choose only certain concepts from Hindumat, as if you could alter them enough to stick a Sikh label on while loudly blaring Hindumat is false? What part of Hindumat exactly is false? The distortions you and the Singh Sabhias claim Hindumat to be? Have I not already shown you, from Hindumat, that Hindumat doesn't teach worship of the devatay? Yet, every time you want to distinguish Sikhism from Hindumat, you make the same worn out false allegations. It's beyond obvious that Guruji was well versed and understood the Hindu scriptures and their mystery teachings. As it is equally clear Guruji incorporated those same philosophical concepts into Gurmat.

Pick and choose? That is exactly what you are doing! You have not once commented on the tuks that others have shared with you. And yes, it is true that Guru Ji was well versed and understood the Hindu scriptures, but Gurbani does not accept wholesale every teaching of the myriad schools of Hindumat as being entirely true. You have been shown countless tuks that are in opposition to the scriptures you have quoted.

It is clear from the quotes from Hindu scriptures that you have given that the Devi and Krishan speak of themselves as being Nirguna Brahman, creator, destroyer and preserver alike. According to Gurbani, they are no more Nirguna Brahman than you or I. Tell me, do you think that the Gurus would have written tuks like the following if they had bought into these beliefs?

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

The goddess Durga takes refuge at the feet of Eternal and abides there.

How is the same as Durga saying "I am the eternal, I create and destroy"?

Every morning we recite the following in Shabad Hazarey:

* ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਹੈ ਜਾਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥੧ (ਸ. ਹਜਾਰੇ)

* Ram and Rahim whose names you are uttering cant save you. Brahma, Vishnu Shiva, Sun and Moon, all are subject to the power of Death.1.

What school of Vaishnavism teaches that Vishnu cannot save you and will die as you and I will die?

Is that simplistic travesty of an interpretation actually the teaching of Bhagavan Krishan? Or was it the bani of an avatara explaining the transcendence of the Divine as nirguna aspect from perspective of having brahmgyaan, where He was merged with the Divine nature?

There is no I to speak of from Nirguna. Gurbani rejects completely the Vaishnav idea that Krishan was identical with Nirguna except in the same manner that atman is identical with Nirguna Brahman.

I'd suggest reading Dasam Granth which goes into much depth on this issue.

ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਔ ਬਿਸਨ ਜਪੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋਟਿਕ ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਭਲੀ ਬਿਧਿ ਧਿਆਯੋ ॥

ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਜਪਿਓ ਅਰੁ ਸੰਭੁ ਥਪਿਓ ਤਿਹ ਤੇ ਤੁਹਿ ਕੋ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਬਚਾਯੋ ॥

……..ਤੋਹਿ ਬਚਾਇ ਸਕੈ ਕਹੁ ਕੈਸੇ ਕੈ ਆਪਨ ਘਾਵ ਬਚਾਇ ਨ ਐਹੈ ॥

ਕੋਪ ਕਰਾਲ ਕੀ ਪਾਵਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੈ ਆਪ ਟੰਗਿਓ ਤਿਮ ਤੋਹਿ ਟੰਗੈਹੈ ॥

K.

[Kaljug]

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥

bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||

You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥

gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||

The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||

O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥

eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||

The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥

aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||

Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 469

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹੈ ਆਪਿ ਅਲਖ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥੬॥

vaddaa saahib hai aap alakh apaaraa ||6||

The Great Lord Master is unfathomable and infinite. ||6||

ਤੇਰੇ ਬੰਕੇ ਲੋਇਣ ਦੰਤ ਰੀਸਾਲਾ ॥

thaerae bankae loein dhanth reesaalaa ||

Your eyes are so beautiful, and Your teeth are delightful.

ਸੋਹਣੇ ਨਕ ਜਿਨ ਲੰਮੜੇ ਵਾਲਾ ॥

sohanae nak jin lanmarrae vaalaa ||

Your nose is so graceful, and Your hair is so long.

ਕੰਚਨ ਕਾਇਆ ਸੁਇਨੇ ਕੀ ਢਾਲਾ ॥

kanchan kaaeiaa sueinae kee dtaalaa ||

Your body is so precious, cast in gold.

ਸੋਵੰਨ ਢਾਲਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮਾਲਾ ਜਪਹੁ ਤੁਸੀ ਸਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥

sovann dtaalaa kirasan maalaa japahu thusee sehaeleeho ||

His body is cast in gold, and He wears Krishna's mala; meditate on Him, O sisters.

ਜਮ ਦੁਆਰਿ ਨ ਹੋਹੁ ਖੜੀਆ ਸਿਖ ਸੁਣਹੁ ਮਹੇਲੀਹੋ ॥

jam dhuaar n hohu kharreeaa sikh sunahu mehaeleeho ||

You shall not have to stand at Death's door, O sisters, if you listen to these teachings.

~SGGS Ji ang 567

ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨਾ ਤੇ ਜਾਨਊ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਨਾਚਨਾ ॥੧॥

kirasaa thae jaanoo har har naachanthee naachanaa ||1||

Know that, through Krishna, the Lord, Har, Har, the dance of creation dances. ||1||

ਪਹਿਲ ਪੁਰਸਾਬਿਰਾ ॥

pehil purasaabiraa ||

First of all, there was only the Primal Being.

ਅਥੋਨ ਪੁਰਸਾਦਮਰਾ ॥

athhon purasaadhamaraa ||

From that Primal Being, Maya was produced.

ਅਸਗਾ ਅਸ ਉਸਗਾ ॥

asagaa as ousagaa ||

All that is, is His.

ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਬਾਗਰਾ ਨਾਚੈ ਪਿੰਧੀ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਗਰਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

har kaa baagaraa naachai pindhhee mehi saagaraa ||1|| rehaao ||

In this Garden of the Lord, we all dance, like water in the pots of the Persian wheel. ||1||Pause||

ਨਾਚੰਤੀ ਗੋਪੀ ਜੰਨਾ ॥

naachanthee gopee jannaa ||

Women and men both dance.

ਨਈਆ ਤੇ ਬੈਰੇ ਕੰਨਾ ॥

neeaa thae bairae kannaa ||

There is no other than the Lord.

ਤਰਕੁ ਨ ਚਾ ॥

tharak n chaa ||

Don't dispute this,

ਭ੍ਰਮੀਆ ਚਾ ॥

bhrameeaa chaa ||

and don't doubt this.

ਕੇਸਵਾ ਬਚਉਨੀ ਅਈਏ ਮਈਏ ਏਕ ਆਨ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥

kaesavaa bachounee aeeeae meeeae eaek aan jeeo ||2||

The Lord says, ""This creation and I are one and the same."

~SGGS Ji ang 693

ਸੰਗਤਿ ਕਾ ਗੁਨੁ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਈ ਪੜਿ ਸੂਆ ਗਨਕ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥

sangath kaa gun bahuth adhhikaaee parr sooaa ganak oudhhaarae ||

The virtues of the Sangat, the Holy Congregation, are so very great. Even the prostitute was saved,

by teaching the parrot to speak the Lord's Name.

Excellent, no compare the tuks you have bee given by various Singhs above. Unless you think that Gurbani is contradicting itself, it should be clear that Gurbani refers to Akal as defined in the Mul Mantar when it uses these names of Devatay, not the Devatay themselves.

Whatkind of "rejection" starts by saying the eternal GOD is in the threegunas, rajo, samo, tatto and hence pervading within the three mahadevasBrahma, Shiva, Vishnu, in the devas and asuras, and in the Das Avtarasand the Great Maha Devi?

Whose NAAMS are called as Supreme Lord direct from Puranas?

How do you not get the distinction? Waheguru pervades everything, that does not somehow imply that Devi is Waheguru in any way whatseoeve no more than it implies that you or I are Waheguru in any sort of way.

And whose NAAM of KAL is in fact Kali aspect of Chandi aspect of Eternal Devi?

Where on Earth do you get that idea?

Please explain the rejection. Since, if there was a true "rejection" God would not be called Hari, Narayana, Keshava, Krishna, Murali, Jagannatha, Gopala, Kal, etc. What you keep failing to realize is Sanatana Dharma teaches the exact same interpretation as Guru ji's bani! All these are temporary forms, manifestations of the One Eternal Unity. But that Eternal One is all-pervading all these forms and greater than these forms. And hence, there cannot be rejection of that through which the Divine is Himself manifesting.

How much clearer can I make this for you? What is rejected as false is Devi claiming that she is Akal, Krishan claiming that he is Akal, Shiva claiming that he is Sadashiv and so on. ALL these beings are bound up in maya, ALL will die. It makes absolutely no sense to say that there is an Eternal Devi or an Eternal Krishan, because there is only Eternal Akal when everything is destroyed.

NOTHING contradicts or rejects Vaishnavmat.

Really? Where in Vaishnavmat is Vishnu described as subject to death? Where is he described as being non-identical with Akal in the same way that Gurbani describes Vishnu as subject to death?

And please stop with the colours and unnecessary bolding and italics. It's extremely irritating and it makes it almost impossible to respond to your posts.

K.

[chatanga1]

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥

bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||

You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥

gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||

The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥

baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||

O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5||

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥

mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||

Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥

dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||

Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥

kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||

Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥

amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||

The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.

ਅਕਾਲ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਜਿਸੁ ਕਦੇ ਨਾਹੀ ਖਉ ॥

akaal moorath jis kadhae naahee kho ||

His form is undying; it is never destroyed.

~SGGS Ji ang 1082

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥

eaek kirasanan sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa th aathamaa ||

The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਾ ਕਾ ਦਾਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋਈ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦੇਉ ॥੪॥

aathamaa baasudhaevasiy jae ko jaanai bhaeo || naanak thaa kaa dhaas hai soee niranjan dhaeo ||4||

Nanak is a slave to anyone who understands this mystery of the all-pervading Lord; he himself is the Immaculate Divine Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 469

Harjas Kaur Ji, You are pushing a tired argument in re-posting the above shabd from 1082. I honestly feel that you have no idea of the shabd, and its relation to the subject. You are mistaking this as refering to the devi/devtas, but it isnt. I really suggest you act on the link i gave you. The idea that the word "Ram" or "Krishan" can ONLY refer to the avtaars is what is creating confusion. In Gurbani, metaphors, and imagery are used, and sometimes can be very difficult to understand. Only people fully versed in this knowledge can expound it, otherwise you will have the Hindu Sants (respectfully) who only know part of Gurbani, because they have not had access to the greater knowledge, who push their limited views of what Gurbani means.

ie you have posted that as men worshipped lower Gods, they obtained lower rewards. here, people who only have lower limited knowledge of gurbani, give lower or incomplete meanings of gurbani. As it is said, " a half-truths can damage more than a lie..."

As you cant even distinguish between Singh Sabha and Samprdaye's I would really suggest that you give it some serious thought. Sant Gurbachan Singhs first schooling was of the Vedic Holy Texts, years before he even got onto studying Gurbani.

To label all thoughts not relating to your views as singh sabha whitewash is just riduculous.

[singh2]

Harjas is going on repeating some verses of one shabad on page 1082 time and again.This was explained to her a few months ago that her interpretation

is out of context and hence not correct.She has started doing the same thing again.Obviously her purpose is propaganda.

Guru sahib says that though various names are used for akal purakh who has no form but his real name is satnam. Read the essence given in the end.

navtan naam japai din raatee ik gun naahee parabh kahi sangaa. ||16||

One may chant new names for You day and night, but even so, O God, no one can describe even one of Your Glorious Virtues. ||16||

ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥

ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ॥

With my tongue I chant the Names given to You.

'Sat Naam' is Your perfect, primal Name.

[Guest]

This topic have gone off tangent, please stick to the topic.

As i was requesting, can we get members from both sides, summarizing this huge discussion on whats being discussed, proven by sources, quotes, ithashik granths so that we can lock this thread and move to archives.

[HarjasDevi]

It is clear from the quotes from Hindu scriptures that you have given that the Devi and Krishan speak of themselvesas being Nirguna Brahman, creator, destroyer and preserver alike.According to Gurbani, they are no more Nirguna Brahman than you or I.Tell me, do you think that the Gurus would have written tuks like thefollowing if they had bought into these beliefs?

ਚਰਨ ਸਰਨ ਜਿਹ ਬਸਤ ਭਵਾਨੀ ॥

The goddess Durga takes refuge at the feet of Eternal and abides there.

How is the same as Durga saying "I am the eternal, I create and destroy"?

Every morning we recite the following in Shabad Hazarey:

* ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਹੈ ਜਾਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥੧ (ਸ. ਹਜਾਰੇ)

* Ram and Rahim whose names you are uttering cant save you. Brahma,Vishnu Shiva, Sun and Moon, all are subject to the power of Death.1.

What school of Vaishnavism teaches that Vishnu cannot save you and will die as you and I will die?

The problem is not Bhagavan Krishan or Devi, but the fact that both illustrate two natures. Look again at the subtle concept I cited from Bhagavad-Gita.

BG 7.4: Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego — all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.

BG 7.5: Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.

BG 7.6: All created beings have their source in these two natures.Of all that is material and all that is spiritual in this world, knowfor certain that I am both the origin and the dissolution.

BG 7.7: O conqueror of wealth, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread.

The material energies are part of what is God but separated from God because of the nature of creation and the power of illusion. But there is a superior energy of God within the living beings. Don't you see this duality being explained here isn't just for Krishan Ji and Devi? It's a direct symbolic reference to the duality existing in all of us.

As the individual jeev, finite, in mode of suffering and avidya, identified with the ego, perishable and passing away... absolutely we are NOT the Parabrahm. So in the symbology, this is absolutely the truth about avataray and devatay. They are part of the material universe, the three gunas and veil of mayayog. All here are finite, deluded and will die.

But is that the whole story jio?

Do you understand the power of a concept of the infinite pervading within the finite? Mathematically how could this be represented? It can't. If the infinite is pervading within the finite, then there is some hidden aspect of the finite which in reality is infinte. We know it's not the jeev. We know it's not the sargun forms of devatay and avtaray. But does this mean there is no inifinity pervading behind those forms in greater and lesser degrees as the REAL essence?

In Swami Chidbhavananda'stranslation of the Bhagavad Gita, he gives an opposite interpretationof the same verse, 7:24, "men of poor understanding think of Me, theunmanifest, as having manifestation, not knowing My supreme state,immutable and unsurpassed." Swami Chidbhavananda, holding Advaita views, gives more importance to God being formless while Srila Prabhupada, following Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's philosophy, gives importance to God with form. Ramakrishna analogized God with form and without form as being like ice and liquid water, as being both the same but in different states. Vishnu Sahasranama

You are back to the same philosophical construction of God being forever separate from His creation. But is that what Gurbani teaches? I thought it was you who told me about advaitvaad in Gurbani? Do you think this reflects Advaita philosophy? We already know that the jeev is not fundamental. "I am not my body, I am not my mind." What is most fundamental is not my personality or my identity in sansaar. All this will pass away. But hiding at the heart of things in fundamental essence, Soham Hamsa: "I am THAT. THAT is I"

ਤਤੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈ ਸੋਹੰ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥

thath niranjan joth sabaaee sohan bhaedh n koee jeeo ||

The essence, the immaculate Lord, the Light of all - I am He and He is me - there is no difference between us.

~SGGS Ji ang 599

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਹੰ ਹੰਸਾ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਤਿਸੈ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੧॥

naanak sohan hansaa jap jaapahu thribhavan thisai samaahi ||1||

O Nanak, chant the chant of 'Sohang hansaa' - 'He is me, and I am Him.' The three worlds are absorbed in Him.

~SGGS Ji ang 1093

Soham Hamsa is a very potent yoga mantra.

Soham (so 'ham सो ऽहम्) is the Sanskrit for "I myself" or "It is I". Inextricably linked with hamsa (हंस in Sanskrit), soham is a voiceless mantra and as such used notably on its own, in the meditation practice ajapa japa and in the kriya practice shabda sanchalana...

Air is exhaled with the sound SA and inhaled with the sound HAM. Then reciting of the mantra HAMSA is continuous

—

Vijnana Bhairava

,

So 'ham in mystical interpretations suggests the identification or dissolution of the Ego with the "Other": "That I Am". When the "I" merges with the "That", the ego of the "I" identity merges with the Other, who is Ishvara of the Vedas, Brahman of the Upanishads, Bhagavan of the Puranas.

"Sa" in Sanskrit is the combination of the "lifeless" (or, static) consonant S with the dynamic vowel A – that is, with the meaning of Prana or vital force. Also Sa is Vishnu and Shiva according to the Vedic Nirukta. The Sandhi means Yoga (union) or self realization.

The meaning of the phrase might be expressed as follows: "I" am obviously not this body because the physical constituents of the body are changing every moment. Ultimately, the body dies. Atman the soul or self never dies – it is "That". "That" is Absolute Reality. It is the witness of all, it is what the mind does through the body. This self is always on the path of progression, which according to Shaivistic thought is Chaitanya or consciousness. The Shiva Sutra speaks of ‘Chaitanyam – Atma’. Consequently, Aham, myself, is Sah, that Self. This is called spiritual awareness. Soham

So we can see the relationship with NAAM abiyaas sas giraas simran and the Soham kriya mantra. But most importantly the article illustrates the traditional Hindu belief that the Eka who is Ishvara is also Brahman is also Bhagavan. Sanatana Dharma doesn't limit Bhagavan Krishna to sarguna only. Bhagavad-Gita isn't some egotistical boasting of a petty false god trying to pretend to be the real deal. That kind of perception is really foolish. First of all Gurbani doesn't say Krishna is filled with ego. It says that Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh, in aspect of the trimurthi which is thrai gun, and under delusion of Maya, are filled with ego.

"What school of Vaishnavism teaches that Vishnu cannot save you and will die as you and I will die?"

Veer ji, you sound like a Christian. Vishnu cannot save you and will die but Jesus rose from the dead and he alone can save you? Lol. Seriously, I wanted to point out the Abrahamic philosophy in your perspective. Vishnu isn't a false god, like Satan contrasted with a true God, like Jesus. Please try to look at it from an Eastern world-view. If you want to understand Vishnu, you have to go a little deeper.

The traditional Sanskrit explanation of the name Viṣṇu involves the root viś, meaning "to settle, to enter", or also (in the Rigveda) "to pervade", and a suffix nu, translating to approximately "the All-Pervading One". An early commentator on the Vedas, Yaska, in his Nirukta, defines Vishnu as 'vishnuvishateh; one who enters everywhere', and 'yad vishito bhavati tadvishnurbhavati; that which is free from fetters and bondages is Vishnu.' Adi Sankara in his commentary on , the thousand namees of Vishnu, states derivation from this root, with a meaning "presence everywhere" ("As he pervades everything, vevesti, he is called Visnu",). Vishnu itself is the second name in the sahasranama. Adi Sankara states (regarding , 3.1.45): "The Power of the Supreme Being has entered within the universe. The root Viś means 'enter into.'" Swami Chinmayananda, in his translation of Vishnu sahasranama further elaborates on that verse: The root Vismeans to enter. The entire world of things and beings is pervaded byHim and the Upanishad emphatically insists in its mantra "whatever thatis there is the world of change." Hence, it means that He is notlimited by space, time or substance. Chinmayananda states that whichpervades everything is Vishnu.

What you are saying is that the All-Pervading is not Nirguna Brahman. But the very characteristic of All-Pervading is infinite, and can only be nirgun aspect. Vishnu in greater aspect is NOT the trai guna of Mayavaad, but is in actuality the All-pervading quality of the Nirguna. So you do not understand what Vishnu is to think only in terms of demi-god. And the reason for the confusion is the association because of the dual nature. The entire created universe is pervaded by Nirguna. Yet, the created universe is entangled in the guna qualities, anger, greed, lust, and deluded by mayayog. So the dual nature of these qualities, the limitations of sarguna as well as the Oneness of Nirguna are represented. But we know that beyond the world of form and the limitations of duality consciousness that all is One and everything is only He. So how can it be true that Devi and Krishan Ji are no more nirguna than you or I?

Soham Hamsa!

[chatanga1]

If you want to understand Vishnu, you have to go a little deeper.

absolutely. If you want to understand Gurbani then you have to go a little deeper.

If what you have posted is the dharma for this yug, then what was the need for Guru Nanak to take birth? ANd if he was born to restore dharma, why not retsore hindu/sanatan dharma which was in the 3 yugs before?

[Kaljug]

The problem is not Bhagavan Krishan or Devi, but the fact that both illustrate two natures. Look again at the subtle concept I cited from Bhagavad-Gita.

The material energies are part of what is God but separated from God because of the nature of creation and the power of illusion. But there is a superior energy of God within the living beings. Don't you see this duality being explained here isn't just for Krishan Ji and Devi? It's a direct symbolic reference to the duality existing in all of us.

As the individual jeev, finite, in mode of suffering and avidya, identified with the ego, perishable and passing away... absolutely we are NOT the Parabrahm. So in the symbology, this is absolutely the truth about avataray and devatay. They are part of the material universe, the three gunas and veil of mayayog. All here are finite, deluded and will die.

Do you not realise how confused you sound? How weak your logic is? Drowning out the comments of the Singhs who have responded to you in a barrage of words is accomplishing nothing but revealing your essential ignorance.

You say that Krishan and Devi's words reveal the duality existing in each of us. If that is so, why worship Krishan or Devi at all?

If, as you say, these are references to Nirguna Brahman, the part of their natures that is above maya, then how can one refer to that part of them as Krishan and Devi? Don't you understand that the core teaching of Gurmat Sidhant and of Advaitvaad is that Parabraham is One, indivisible, undifferentiated, wholly unique and without a second? It is ridiculous to assert that there is a superior and inferior portion of Krishan and Devi, and that the superior aspect of both is identical to Parabraham yet they are both unique at that level.

Do you understand the power of a concept of the infinite pervading within the finite? Mathematically how could this be represented? It can't. If the infinite is pervading within the finite, then there is some hidden aspect of the finite which in reality is infinte. We know it's not the jeev. We know it's not the sargun forms of devatay and avtaray. But does this mean there is no inifinity pervading behind those forms in greater and lesser degrees as the REAL essence?

Do you not see how stupid this is? Infinity in greater and lesser degrees? Don't you understand that infinity is by definition indivisible? Half of infinity is infinity; a 33 crore-th part of infinity is still infinity. Please leave talk about infinity alone as you are just going to confuse yourself.

You are back to the same philosophical construction of God being forever separate from His creation. But is that what Gurbani teaches? I thought it was you who told me about advaitvaad in Gurbani? Do you think this reflects Advaita philosophy?

With due respect, it's obvious that you have no idea what advaitvaad means.

ਤਤੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈ ਸੋਹੰ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਜੀਉ ॥

thath niranjan joth sabaaee sohan bhaedh n koee jeeo ||

The essence, the immaculate Lord, the Light of all - I am He and He is me - there is no difference between us.

~SGGS Ji ang 599

ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋਹੰ ਹੰਸਾ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਹੁ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਤਿਸੈ ਸਮਾਹਿ ॥੧॥

naanak sohan hansaa jap jaapahu thribhavan thisai samaahi ||1||

O Nanak, chant the chant of 'Sohang hansaa' - 'He is me, and I am Him.' The three worlds are absorbed in Him.

~SGGS Ji ang 1093

What you are not getting is that there is no I at this level of being.

So we can see the relationship with NAAM abiyaas sas giraas simran and the Soham kriya mantra. But most importantly the article illustrates the traditional Hindu belief that the Eka who is Ishvara is also Brahman is also Bhagavan. Sanatana Dharma doesn't limit Bhagavan Krishna to sarguna only.

Why quote what Sanatan Dharam teaches? Isn't it obvious by now that Gurbani does not teach that Krishan is equivalent to Nirguna Brahman as described in Mul Mantra?

Veer ji, you sound like a Christian. Vishnu cannot save you and will die but Jesus rose from the dead and he alone can save you? Lol. Seriously, I wanted to point out the Abrahamic philosophy in your perspective. Vishnu isn't a false god, like Satan contrasted with a true God, like Jesus. Please try to look at it from an Eastern world-view. If you want to understand Vishnu, you have to go a little deeper.

Do you actually read the previous posts in this topic before you start writing?

ਰਾਮ ਰਹੀਮ ਉਬਾਰ ਨ ਸਕਹੈ ਜਾਕਰ ਨਾਮ ਰਟੈ ਹੈ॥ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸ਼ਨ ਰੁਦ੍ਰ ਸੂਰਹ ਸਸਿ ਤੇ ਬਸਿ ਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਹੈ ॥੧ (ਸ. ਹਜਾਰੇ)

Ram and Rahim whose names you are uttering cant save you. Brahma, Vishnu Shiva, Sun and Moon, all are subject to the power of Death.1.

That is not me talking, that is Dasmesh Pita. When are you going to understand that Gurbani does not accept Vishnu as Supreme as he is described in some Hindu scriptures?

What you are saying is that the All-Pervading is not Nirguna Brahman.

Nope, Gurbani tells us that Vishnu is not Nirguna Brahman.

But the very characteristic of All-Pervading is infinite, and can only be nirgun aspect. Vishnu in greater aspect is NOT the trai guna of Mayavaad, but is in actuality the All-pervading quality of the Nirguna. So you do not understand what Vishnu is to think only in terms of demi-god. And the reason for the confusion is the association because of the dual nature. The entire created universe is pervaded by Nirguna. Yet, the created universe is entangled in the guna qualities, anger, greed, lust, and deluded by mayayog. So the dual nature of these qualities, the limitations of sarguna as well as the Oneness of Nirguna are represented. But we know that beyond the world of form and the limitations of duality consciousness that all is One and everything is only He. So how can it be true that Devi and Krishan Ji are no more nirguna than you or I?

You have already answered your last question in the preceding sentence.

And for the love of Cheesus Crust, please please please stop with the colours, bolding and italics. It takes as much time sorting out the tags as it does to write a response to your posts.

K.

Edited January 23, 2010 by Kaljug

[HarjasDevi]

"If what you have posted is the dharma for this yug, then what was theneed for Guru Nanak to take birth?"

yadā yadā hi dharmasya

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaḿ sṛjāmy aham

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata,

and a predominant rise of irreligion — at that time I descend Myself.

~Bhagavad-Gita 4:7

ਕਲਿ ਕਾਤੀ ਰਾਜੇ ਕਾਸਾਈ ਧਰਮੁ ਪੰਖ ਕਰਿ ਉਡਰਿਆ ॥

kal kaathee raajae kaasaaee dhharam pankh kar ouddariaa ||

The Dark Age of Kali Yuga is the knife, and the kings are butchers; righteousness has sprouted wings and flown away.

ਕੂੜੁ ਅਮਾਵਸ ਸਚੁ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਮਾ ਦੀਸੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹ ਚੜਿਆ ॥

koorr amaavas sach chandhramaa dheesai naahee keh charriaa ||

In this dark night of falsehood, the moon of Truth is not visible anywhere.

~SGGS Ji ang 145

ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੂ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਸਾ ਚੜਿਆ ਰੈ ਭਾਣੁ ॥

kal vich dhhoo andhhaar saa charriaa rai bhaan ||

In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, there was only pitch darkness. Then, He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness.

ਸਤਹੁ ਖੇਤੁ ਜਮਾਇਓ ਸਤਹੁ ਛਾਵਾਣੁ ॥

sathahu khaeth jamaaeiou sathahu shhaavaan ||

He farms the field of Truth, and spreads out the canopy of Truth.

ਨਿਤ ਰਸੋਈ ਤੇਰੀਐ ਘਿਉ ਮੈਦਾ ਖਾਣੁ ॥

nith rasoee thaereeai ghio maidhaa khaan ||

Your kitchen always has ghee and flour to eat.

ਚਾਰੇ ਕੁੰਡਾਂ ਸੁਝੀਓਸੁ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ ॥

chaarae kunddaan sujheeous man mehi sabadh paravaan ||

You understand the four corners of the universe; in your mind, the Word of the Shabad is approved and supreme.

ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿਓ ਕਰਿ ਨਦਰਿ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ॥

aavaa goun nivaariou kar nadhar neesaan ||

You eliminate the comings and goings of reincarnation, and bestow the insignia of Your Glance of Grace.

ਅਉਤਰਿਆ ਅਉਤਾਰੁ ਲੈ ਸੋ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ॥

aouthariaa aouthaar lai so purakh sujaan ||

You are the Avataar, the Incarnation of the all-knowing Primal Lord.

~SGGS Ji ang 968

"ANd if he was born to restoredharma, why not retsore hindu/sanatan dharma which was in the 3 yugsbefore?"

Dharma is Dharma. It doesn't change. It has not changed. In the age of Kali Yuga the path of bhakti, Nama Japo and sankirtan are the most effective. That is what Sanatana Dharma teaches. If you compare Gurmat with what is described in the Puranas, you are not talking a different philosophy, let alone a different "Dharma." Because both are describing the same belief structure. The only opposition between bani and Puranas is the imagination of Singh Sabhias who intend only to disunite Gurmat from it's clear Vedic, Puranic and Upanishadic origination.

kṛte yad dhyāyato viṣṇuḿ

tretāyāḿ yajato makhaiḥ

dvāpare paricaryāyāḿ

kalau tad dhari-kīrtanāt

Whatever result was obtained in Satya-yuga by meditating on Viṣṇu, in Tretā-yuga by performing sacrifices,

and in Dvāpara-yuga by serving the Lord's lotus feet can be obtained in Kali-yuga simply by chanting the Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra.

~Srimad Bhagavatam 12.3.52

ਮਹਾ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਬਸਿਓ ਅਚਰਜ ਨਾਮੁ ਸੁਨਿਓ ਰੀ ॥੩॥

mehaa manthra gur hiradhai basiou acharaj naam suniou ree ||3||

The Guru has implanted the Maha Mantra, the Great Mantra, within my heart, and I have heard the wondrous Naam, the Name of the Lord.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਨਦਰਿ ਅਵਲੋਕਨ ਅਪੁਨੈ ਚਰਣਿ ਲਗਾਈ ॥

kar kirapaa prabh nadhar avalokan apunai charan lagaaee ||

Showing His Mercy, God has looked upon me with favor, and He has attached me to His feet.

~SGGS Ji ang 384

dhyāyan kṛte yajan yajñais

tretāyāḿ dvāpare 'rcayan

yad āpnoti tad āpnoti

kalau sańkīrtya keśavam

"Whatever is achieved by meditation in Satya-yuga, by the performance of sacrifice in Tretā-yuga,

and by the worship of Lord Kṛṣṇa's lotus feet in Dvāpara-yuga is obtained in the age of Kali simply by glorifying the name of Lord Keśava."

ਸਰਨਿ ਦੁਖ ਭੰਜਨ ਪੁਰਖ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗਤਿ ਰਵਣੁ ਜੈਸੇ ॥

saran dhukh bhanjan purakh niranjan saadhhoo sangath ravan jaisae ||

I have come to Your Sanctuary, Destroyer of pain; O Primal Immaculate Lord, may I dwell upon You in the Saadh Sangat, the Company of the Holy.

ਕੇਸਵ ਕਲੇਸ ਨਾਸ ਅਘ ਖੰਡਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਜੀਵਤ ਦਰਸ ਦਿਸੇ ॥੨॥੯॥੧੨੫॥

kaesav kalaes naas agh khanddan naanak jeevath dharas dhisae ||2||9||125||

O Lord of beautiful hair, Destroyer of pain, Eradicator of sins, Nanak lives, gazing upon the Blessed Vision of Your Darshan.

~SGGS Ji ang 829

tathā caivottamaḿ loke

tapaḥ śrī-hari-kīrtanam

kalau yuge viśeṣeṇa

viṣṇu-prītyai samācaret

"In this way the most perfect penance to be executed in this world is the chanting of the name of Lord Śrī Hari.

Especially in the age of Kali, one can satisfy the Supreme Lord Viṣṇu by performing sańkīrtana.''

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵਡੀ ਹੈ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ॥

har kee vaddiaaee vaddee hai har keerathan har kaa ||

Great is the Greatness of the Lord, and the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises.

ਹਰਿ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵਡੀ ਹੈ ਜਾ ਨਿਆਉ ਹੈ ਧਰਮ ਕਾ ॥

har kee vaddiaaee vaddee hai jaa niaao hai dhharam kaa ||

Great is the Greatness of the Lord; His Justice is totally Righteous.

~SGGS Ji ang 84

ਦੀਨਨ ਕੀ ਰੱਛਾ ਨਿਮਿਤ ਕਰ ਹੈ ਆਪ ਉਪਾਇ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਾਵਨ ਸਦਾ ਆਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੈ ਆਇ ॥

Deenan kirachchhaadnimit kar hai aap upaae|| Param purakh paavan sadaa aap pragad hai aae||

For the protection of the helpless and suffering humanity the Lord Himself will take some measure and He will manifest Himself as the Supreme Purusha;

ਆਪ ਪ੍ਰਗਟ ਹੈ ਆਇ ਦੀਨ ਰੱਛਾ ਕੇ ਕਾਰਣ ॥ ਅਵਤਾਰੀਸ ਵਤਾਰ ਧਰਾ ਕੇ ਭਾਰ ਉਤਾਰਣ ॥੧੩੯॥

aaP pragad hai aae deen rachchhaadke kaaran|| Avtaaris vataar dharaa ke bhaar utaaran||139||

For the protection of the lowly and for ending the burden of the earth, the Lord will incarnate Himself.139.

ਕਲਜੁਗ ਕੇ ਅੰਤਹ ਸਮੈ ਸਤਿਜੁਗ ਲਾਗਤ ਆਦਿ ॥ ਦੀਨਨ ਕੀ ਰੱਛਾ ਲੀਏ ਧਰਿ ਹੈ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਦ ॥

Kaljug ke antah samai sat(i)jug laagad aadh|| Deenan kirachchhaadleee dhar(i) hai roop anaad||

At the end of the Iron Age and by the very beginning of Satyuga, the Lord will incarnate Himself for the protection of the lowly,

ਧਰਿ ਹੈ ਰੂਪ ਅਨਾਦ ਕਲਹਿ ਕਵਤਕ ਕਹ ਭਾਰੀ ॥ ਸ਼ੱਤ੍ਰਨ ਕੇ ਨਾਸਾਰਥ ਨਮਿਤ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਅਵਤਾਰੀ ॥੧੪੦॥

Dhar(i) hai roop anaad kalah(i) kavtak kah bhaari Shattran ke naasaarath namit avtaar avtdaree||140||

And will perform wonderful sports and in this way the incarnated Purusha will come for the destruction of the enemies.140.

ਸ੍ਵੈਯਾ ਛੰਦ ॥

Sorthaa Chhand||

SWAYYA STANZA

ਪਾਪ ਸੰਬੂਹ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ਕਉ ਕਲਿਕੀ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਵਹਗੇ ॥ ਤੁਰਕੱਛਿ ਤੁਰੰਗ ਸਪੱਛ ਬਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਢ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖਪਾਵਹਗੇ ॥

Paap sanbooh binaasan kau Kalikiavtaar kahaavahge|| Turkachchh(i) turang sapachchh bado kar(i) kaadh||

For the destruction of the sins, he will be called the Kalki incarnation and mounting on a horse and taking the sword, he will destroy all;

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) pg. 1150

SB 12.2.21:After all the impostor kings have been killed, the residents of thecities and towns will feel the breezes carrying the most sacredfragrance of the sandalwood paste and other decorations of Lord Vāsudeva, and their minds will thereby become transcendentally pure.

SB 12.2.22: When Lord Vāsudeva,the Supreme Personality of Godhead, appears in their hearts in Histranscendental form of goodness, the remaining citizens will abundantlyrepopulate the earth.

SB 12.2.23: When the Supreme Lord has appeared on earth as Kalki, the maintainer of religion, Satya-yuga will begin, and human society will bring forth progeny in the mode of goodness.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਬਸੰਤ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਹ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰਹ ॥

ghatt ghatt basanth baasudhaeveh paarabreham paramaesureh ||

The Supreme Lord God, the Transcendent, Luminous Lord, dwells in each and every heart.

ਜਾਚੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੰ ਨਹ ਬਿਸਰੰਤਿ ਨਹ ਬਿਸਰੰਤਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਹ ॥੨੧॥

jaachanth naanak kirapaal prasaadhan neh bisaranth neh bisaranth naaraaeineh ||21||

Nanak begs for this blessing from the Merciful Lord, that he may never forget Him, never forget Him.

~SGGS Ji ang 1356

[singh2]

References to deities in SGGS should not be twisted. Guru sahib wrote in detail about these deities in Dasam Granth sahib.

The following is from Bachitra natak composition of Dasam granth. This is called Akal purakh's instructions to Guru sahib.

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ਇਸ ਕੀਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ॥

अकाल पुरख बाच इस कीट प्रति ॥

The Words of the Non-temporal Lord to this insect:

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਨਿਕ ਸਿਧ ਕੋ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਅਪਨਾ ਰਾਹੁ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥

जिनि जिनि तनिक सिध को पायो ॥ तिनि तिनि अपना राहु चलायो ॥

Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own ptah.

ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮ ਉਚਾਰਿ ਤੇ ਭਯੋ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥

परमेसर न किनहूं पहिचाना ॥ मम उचारि ते भयो दिवाना ॥१६॥

None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad with `I-ness`.16.

ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥

परम त्त किनहूं न पछाना ॥ आप आप भीतरि उरझाना ॥

Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself.

ਤਬ ਜੇ ਜੇ ਰਿਖਿ ਰਾਜ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਆਪਨ ਪੁਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਚਲਾਏ ॥੧੭॥

तब जे जे रिखि राज बनाए ॥ तिन आपन पुन सिम्रित चलाए ॥१७॥

All the great rishis (sages), who were then created, produced their own Smritis.17.

ਜੇ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥ ਤਿਨਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੀ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥

जे सिम्रितन के भए अनुरागी ॥ तिनि तिनि क्रिआ ब्रहम की तिआगी ॥

All those who became followers of these smritis, they abandoned the path of the Lord.

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥

जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥

Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥

Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them.

ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥

जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥

Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19.

ਜਿਨ ਮਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥

जिन मति बेद कतेबन तिआगी ॥ पारब्रहम के भए अनुरागी ॥

Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord.

ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਗੂੜ ਮਤਿ ਜੇ ਚਲਹੀ ॥ ਭਾਤਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਦੁਖਨ ਸੋ ਦਲਹੀ ॥੨੦॥

तिन के गूड़ मति जे चलही ॥ भाति अनेक दुखन सो दलही ॥२०॥

Whosoever follows their path, he faces various types of sufferings.20.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਸਹਿਤ ਜਾਤਨ ਸੰਦੇਹਿ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਸੰਗਿ ਨ ਛੋਡਤ ਨੇਹ ॥

जे जे सहित जातन संदेहि ॥ प्रभ को संगि न छोडत नेह ॥

Those who consider the castes illusory, they do not abandon the love of the Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰੀ ਕਹ ਜਾਹੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਅੰਤਰੁ ਕਛੁ ਨਾਹੀਂ ॥੨੧॥

ते ते परम पुरी कह जाही ॥ तिन हरि सिउ अंतरु कछु नाहीं ॥२१॥

When they leave the world, they go to the abode of the Lord, and there is no difference between them and the Lord.21.

ਜੇ ਜੇ ਜੀਯ ਜਾਤਨ ਤੇ ਡਰੈ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਤਜਿ ਤਿਨ ਮਗਿ ਪਰੈ ॥

जे जे जीय जातन ते डरै ॥ परम पुरख तजि तिन मगि परै ॥

Those who fear the castes and follow their path, abandoning the Supreme Lord.

ਤੇ ਤੇ ਨਰਕ ਕੁੰਡ ਮੋ ਪਰਹੀ ॥ ਬਾਰ ਬਾਰ ਜਗ ਮੋ ਬਪੁ ਧਰਹੀ ॥੨੨॥

ते ते नरक कुंड मो परही ॥ बार बार जग मो बपु धरही ॥२२॥

They fall into hell and transmigrate again and again.22.

Dasam Granth sahib

Harjas wrote

ਪਾਪ ਸੰਬੂਹ ਬਿਨਾਸਨ ਕਉ ਕਲਿਕੀ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਕਹਾਵਹਗੇ ॥ ਤੁਰਕੱਛਿ ਤੁਰੰਗ ਸਪੱਛ ਬਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਢ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨ ਖਪਾਵਹਗੇ ॥

Paap sanbooh binaasan kau Kalikiavtaar kahaavahge|| Turkachchh(i) turang sapachchh bado kar(i) kaadh||

For the destruction of the sins, he will be called the Kalki incarnation and mounting on a horse and taking the sword, he will destroy all;

~Shri Dasam Granth Sahib Ji (SGPC translation) pg. 1150

Do not stop there.guru sahib writes that kalki avtar got proudy and made himself God and asks people to worship him. God sent Mir mehdi to kill Kalki avtar and he defeated and killed him.

Edited January 23, 2010 by singh2

[Balbir Singh]

ਜਾਚੰਤਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਲ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦੰ ਨਹ ਬਿਸਰੰਤਿ ਨਹ ਬਿਸਰੰਤਿ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਹ ॥੨੧॥

jaachanth naanak kirapaal prasaadhan neh bisaranth neh bisaranth naaraaeineh ||21||

Nanak begs for this blessing from the Merciful Lord, that he may never forget Him, never forget Him.

~SGGS Ji ang 1356

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!

Dear all and Harjas Kaur Jee!

True Gurdev's Vaaks are always instigating Truth.

But preachers never guide us how to remember and never forget NaaraaiNah. Why?

*****

Singh2 Jee!

Thanks for the wonderful Vaaks from The Dasam Granth.

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥

जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥

Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥

Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them.

ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥

जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥

Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19.

ਜਿਨ ਮਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥

जिन मति बेद कतेबन तिआगी ॥ पारब्रहम के भए अनुरागी ॥

Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord.

May I ask when the true seeker's Liv is fixed in the Feet of Hari? Many are waiting for Liv while repeating 'Waaheguru'. What happens with Sri Guru Granth Saahib Jee then?

Balbir Singh

[dalsingh101]

ਜਿਨ ਮਨ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥ ਸੋ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਨ ਕੇ ਰਾਹ ਨ ਆਯੋ ॥੧੮॥

जिन मन हरि चरनन ठहिरायो ॥ सो सिम्रितन के राह न आयो ॥१८॥

Those who devoted themselves to the Feet of the Lord, they did not adopt the path of the Smritis.18.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਚਾਰ ਹੀ ਬੇਦ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਲੋਕ ਤਿਹ ਕਰਮ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

ब्रहमा चार ही बेद बनाए ॥ सरब लोक तिह करम चलाए ॥

Brahma composed all the four Vedas, all the people followed the injunctions contained in them.

ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਲਿਵ ਹਰਿ ਚਰਨਨ ਲਾਗੀ ॥ ਤੇ ਬੇਦਨ ਤੇ ਭਏ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥੧੯॥

जिन की लिव हरि चरनन लागी ॥ ते बेदन ते भए तिआगी ॥१९॥

Those who were devoted to the Feet of the Lord, they abandoned the Vedas.19.

ਜਿਨ ਮਤਿ ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬਨ ਤਿਆਗੀ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਭਏ ਅਨੁਰਾਗੀ ॥

जिन मति बेद कतेबन तिआगी ॥ पारब्रहम के भए अनुरागी ॥

Those who abandoned the path of the Vedas and Katebs, they became the devotees of the Lord.

Shouldn't that quote pretty much clinch the matter of the importance of vedantic theology for Sikhs? At least for those who believe in the DG?

[chatanga1]

glānir bhavati bhārata

abhyutthānam adharmasya

tadātmānaḿ sṛjāmy aham

Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata,

and a predominant rise of irreligion at that time I descend Myself.

~Bhagavad-Gita 4:7

Dharma is Dharma. It doesn't change. It has not changed.In the age of Kali Yuga the path of bhakti, Nama Japo and sankirtan are the most effective. That is what Sanatana Dharma teaches. If you compare Gurmat with what is described in the Puranas, you are not talking a different philosophy, let alone a different "Dharma." Because both are describing the same belief structure. The only opposition between bani and Puranas is the imagination of Singh Sabhias who intend only to disunite Gurmat from it's clear Vedic, Puranic and Upanishadic origination.

So the hindus recognise Guru Nanak as Avatar of Vishnu, and the Avatar of Kalyug?

Dharma has changed actually. Bhagwan Ram Chanders dharma was to kill shudra who did jap-tap. Guru Ji's dharma was to say that my wars are won because of them. God has not changed, but Dharam has.

Edited January 24, 2010 by chatanga1