tejvansh singh Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 RELIGIONS WHEHTER SIKHISM HINDUISM OR ANY OTHER RELIGION DELIVERED THEIR MESSAGE THROUGH SOURCE OF FEAR ABOUT LIFE AFTER DEATH THROUGH THEIR UNDERSTANDING AND HAVE APPLIED LOGIC TO THEIR EXLPRESSIONS. SO IF WE SIKHS AGREE TO THE ILLOGICAL EXPLANATIONS OF CHAAURASSI LAKH JANAM THEN IT IS THE SAMEN AS MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS DO SO IT SEEMS THAT OUR GURU'S HAVE BEEN IGNORANT IN THIS ASPECT TO CREATE FEAR AFTER ALL THEY WERE SIMPLE HUMAN BEINGS. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- moderator note: Please, edit your post as we don't allow CAPS letters. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Research is already been done. http://www.sikhawareness.com/sikhawareness...opic.php?t=1013 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darshan kaur Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 oi.guru's r simple human beings 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 i would say they are the most perfect level a human being can reach. can u name a human better? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Singh_but_cant_Sing Posted July 13, 2003 Report Share Posted July 13, 2003 Fateh Ji! How did you possibly think that our guru's are just human beings. :?: Guru Nanak dev ji was one with god, so was god ( so were all guru's as they were all one joth!) and here you are saying that he was just a simple human beings. I suggest that you read the sakhi of how bhai lehna ji became guru Angad dev ji. If I came across rude, please forgive me. If you cant find the sakhi....I will post it later on. Read bhai Gurdaas ji diya vara, they have done alot of 'ustat' of guru Nanak dev ji, how every where there are praises of Guru Nanak Dev ji. I know I havent posted any links here but dont have the time now, will do it later on when I get back. Fateh ji. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gursj Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 well the whole thing about being human...how human are humans are today ...mind it if being human was easy than this world would be different. our guru's have tried to lead us by example , they never asked us to do anything which they could not do themselves ........so the whole thing about life after death well u cant realy know if its true or not till the death comes but at least you can see that whatever is written in guru granth sahib ji is true when we look at our lives. so this life is much more complicated than death is , if its true about this life than it might well be true for life after death .. you can question it but than you would have to find an answer to it urself.....a sikh is always learning and our guru is the key to knowledge ... there are easy ways and than there are difficult ways ,,,depends which way you choose.......... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tejvansh singh Posted July 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 dear gsj if everything written in guru granth sahib about life is right it is same rightousness that is foind in other religions also i am talking about illusion of life after death which one cannot rely blindly upon any religion in the world. it is illogical to answer like that that we should wait for death 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogroup singh Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 RELIGIONS WHEHTER SIKHISM HINDUISM OR ANY OTHER RELIGION DELIVERED THEIR MESSAGE THROUGH SOURCE OF FEAR ABOUT LIFE AFTER DEATH THROUGH THEIR UNDERSTANDING AND HAVE APPLIED LOGIC TO THEIR EXLPRESSIONS. Where do you stand as far as it goes to Sikhism's knowledge? Should I assume that you have done studying Hinduism/sikhism/Christianity/Islam? Ok here are few questions for you. Hinduism is a vedic religion so until or unless you don't understand their vedas, you can't compare their beliefs with other religions. If I go by your claims and questions then it seems like you have done studying the Vedas, Smiritis and Upnashids? Are you sure you have done it? If you really want to ask questions or want to claim something then please have some evidences to prove yourself that you know what you talking about... Let me know if you have done studing following sacred scriptures of Hinduism? As I can see that you are ready to compare them. If not then what's your source to claim your points you have posted above? 1. The Rig-Veda 2. Rig-Veda (Sanskrit) 3. The Sama-Veda 4. The Yajur Veda 5. The Atharva-Veda 6. The Upanishads 7. The Laws of Manu 8. The Dharma Sutras 9. The Institutes of Vishnu 10. The Mahabharata, Book 1: Adi Parva 11. The Mahabharata, Book 2: Sabha Parva 12. Rámáyan Of VálmÃÂki 13. Indian Idylls 14. The Bhagavadgîtâ 15. The Vedântâ-Sûtras 16. The Vedântâ-Sûtras 17. The Devî Gita 18. The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali 19. The Sánkhya Aphorisms of Kapila 20. Songs of Kabîr Are you done with everything I have mentioned above? If you say yes then I will ask you few questions and let me know when you have time to come on this site, and we will have real time discussion..... SO IF WE SIKHS AGREE TO THE ILLOGICAL EXPLANATIONS OF CHAAURASSI LAKH JANAM THEN IT IS THE SAMEN AS MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS DO SO IT SEEMS THAT OUR GURU'S HAVE BEEN IGNORANT IN THIS ASPECT TO CREATE FEAR AFTER ALL THEY WERE SIMPLE HUMAN BEINGS. Yes, we believe in recarnation and its not illogical and I will discuss that later on but first let me have references to your claims that those explanations are illogical. Are those your personal claims or do you have real solid evidences to prove that Islam and Christianity have the same concept? It's easy to say than proving so please if you really want to discuss then bring me references to prove your points. I will wait for your references. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogroup singh Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 dear gsj If everything written in guru granth sahib about life is right it is same rightousness that is foind in other religions also Not true, but I would like to see your references to back up your comments and then I will provide you to back up my points. How much time do you think you need to prove that Sikhism and other religions have the same teaching about life? I hope you will come up with references to prove your point? i am talking about illusion of life after death which one cannot rely blindly upon any religion in the world. Yes, one can't rely on them blindly. Also, I would like to see references otherwise don't expect us to discuss it with you because we don't want to waste time for personal opinions. If you have solid evidences to prove your points then you are more than welcome to discuss it further. it is illogical to answer like that that we should wait for death im waiting for your logical references that I have asked you above and oince you provide me then we will discuss it logically. I hope you will keep your words and try to discuss it logically as well? Because so far I've seen that you just post but there are no references/evidences with your posts... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shere khalsa da Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 :shock: now im shocked, how can u say that the gurus were just simple human beings :shock: its exactley like khalsa souljah said that they were the perfect level a persion could reach, its simply cos look how long it took vaheguru (who is the creator, the supreme truth) too make a banda sey(a person right) over 200 years :shock: sikhi is not something small, its a big thing :hearme: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pritam Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 i think the word your looking for is --->> humble. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 guru granth sahib is unlike any other scripture because it was written directly by the founders of hte faith the original remains intact so we know no corruption has occured it has a mathematical system to prevent interpolations it is applicable to all mankind it does not add dogmas and impose ideas on dress and basic lifestyle it is written by enlightened souls rather than so called prophets its authors are also from different religious backgrounds so has a univeral message it has no scientific absurdities, neither does it claim to prophecise DNA and whatnot like eg the quran, but does have a number of scientific facts that were not available at the time, eg numerous solar systems, worlds, rotating earth, etc it is written in a script whcih was specifically developed for the purpose of writing it it is written in different langauges yet all seem to be coherant and come together .......if i was going to trust ONE scripture in the world.....i know which one it would be 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K4ur Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 GWAN Souljaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khandaydhaar Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 shere khalsa da, how do u know it 200 years for Waheguroo to make a banda??? :? tell me fateh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gursj Posted July 15, 2003 Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 ssa fine dont believe blindly...can u say why one person is born in a poor family or why other is born in the house of a rich... one person gets a family which has reliegous background other person gets a family which goes to clubbing ,drinking among other things.... Do u believe that akaal purakh is "nirbhau nirvair" if yes than why does someone get a birth of insect and someone human being....than wont you call all this discrimination. if not than what is it , what is the most logical answer ... knowing what happens after death is not easy , i would first try to relate what gurbani says about life, & try to implement whatever possible... as far as other reliegns are concerned ......in the begining man used to fear from fire and water so he thought them as god....and with time man has progressed and feels more secure against them....our gurus had the knowledge yet they were humble , they have spent whole lives in understanding the questions you are worried about . You can dispute it but than there are many things along with it that you will dispute , and at end of the day you will be disputing the very exsistance of GOD but Gurbani tells us to love not fear the almighty (akaal purakh doesnt envy anyone.) whenever you study for your exams well you pass & move onto next class isnt it so you have think how you feel about it ...is the fear of failing or the joy of passing that makes you work hard! so the fear thing is the way you look at it, so you dont have to if you wish to also it is for us to realise that its our mind that we need to fear most and we can win it over only with the help of mind.... so all this is interlinked.... ....so the logical thing is that you havent seen the GOD ...but you believe in it...the logical thing you have never heard the GOD speak but your prayers have been answered ...so there is logic in it ...there is life and there is death and there is life after that.... as far as 84 lakh jonis are concerned , could very well be true ....may be one day it shall be prooved ..as you know that many species of birds and mammels are getting extinct but than there are new strains of viruses and other life forms which are getting created .... well we can go on and on but will end this with a quotes from Anand Sahib ji "Karmi apo apni ke nede ke door" and "Jinni naam dhyaya gaye musakatt kaal ,Nanak te mukh uujle keti chutti naal" That seems to be logical to me dont know how you take it. Wjkk Wjkf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tejvansh singh Posted July 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2003 i am still not satisfied because some of the persons like nogroup are trying to make me read the holy books.i think he doesnot understand the commonsense question. some people are trying to convince me that this is the end of human approach towards divinity can i ask nogroup that there are six thousand languages in the world and you will make me read all the wriiten material in this world to justify your illogical concept of life after death. folks let me tell you----------------------------if you have read the jaap sahib you will find that it is mentioned there that the glory of god cannot be described in words aleekh hain also guru nanak ji said -----you yourself knows your glory then how could any guru describe the life after death. seeking your kind response 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gursj Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 SSA, perhaps would like to hear your views on it..I thnk there is a communication problem....we are not able to understand ur questions... well if you know something about life after death or if you dont believe in it than share it with us....may be your views will help us c things in a diff. angle. wjkk wjkf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tejvansh singh Posted July 16, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 to gursj i found you genuine and tolerant to ask me instead of justifying the unknown theories, i apologise i would be very brief because everything which i am saying is not true and perfect to be said because it is the awakening angle not changing anything in this world whenever we read poetry we cannot get mathematical expressions through it like begumpura shehar koo naam so there is no begumpura it is the beauty of dreamworld and in this world we imagine extreme peace and bliss of god. in the same way when we look at chaurrasii lakh janam it is the behavioural world where we behave like animals chaurrasii lakh is the symbolic expression like chaatii viikaar so in our random wandering mind we actually are animals and dead bodies so we find life after death of animal behaviour in this life not something after this life seeking your response not arguement 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nogroup singh Posted July 16, 2003 Report Share Posted July 16, 2003 i am still not satisfied because some of the persons like nogroup are trying to make me read the holy books.i think he doesnot understand the common sense question. I have no intention to satisfy you. If you want to get satisfaction then you need to create Guru and student relation first. But its common these days that religion/GOD are easy to question and I don't find anything wrong in it but you can't understand GOD/GURu if you are looking for logic. One genetelmen asked me long time that why do we believe in GOD when we never seen it? I told him that its spirit and we believe in it and he was looking for logic behind it. And your question is similar to him. So, its not a matter of common sense and I have good amount of common sense with me so please don't take me wrong but you are not clear but any questions or post you make you just so curious to know but don't post your point of view clearly. First learn to have to patience and sense of humour to have debate. I wrote all those scriptures and if you go back then I have mentioned that please add your source of knowledge from where you getting confused or getting your logics. Please go back and read it once again. I didn't ask you to go and read all those scriptures but I have asked you for references. I love to clarify but giving satisfaction is only possible if you have faith and relation with Guru ji and he can only give you satisfaction. So again source of your knowledge and as well as references to your claims where you're trying to compare GOD/spirit of Sikhism with Christianity/Islam? some people are trying to convince me that this is the end of human approach towards divinity May be! but not me because I believe that only GOD and Gurus are on that level where one can be convinced otherwise we would have been 1 billion sikhs by now. Guru Nanak ji were able to make 3 crores Sikhs in his lifetime and today after having so many scholars and our GREAT Guru Granth Sahib ji still we are decreasing in numbers not growing...... can i ask nogroup that there are six thousand languages in the world and you will make me read all the wriiten material in this world to justify your illogical concept of life after death. Yes, if you want to say that chinese is same as URDU then you may have to but not six thousands in real world you should have references to your claims. Brother from one side you're trying to make it big deal that there should be logic behind every post we make and that's how you can be convinced and on the other side without knowing the logic of Sikhism's GOD/spirit you have been comparing it... So please be logical if you really want us to be logical. Thanks! folks let me tell you----------------------------if you have read the jaap sahib you will find that it is mentioned there that the glory of god cannot be described in words aleekh hain yes! also guru nanak ji said -----you yourself knows your glory then how could any guru describe the life after death. To be honest you are not clear what your intentions are or what really you trying to ask.. Like one of the member asked above that please be clear what you trying to ask and let us know your point of view so we can understand it fully. seeking your kind response Please, try to write your point of view so we can understand it fully..... Also, brother I have seen your post where you've called moderator " animal with long hair" so that tells me your tolerance as well. It was deleted but you know what im talking about... Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gursj Posted July 17, 2003 Report Share Posted July 17, 2003 to gursj i found you genuine and tolerant to ask me instead of justifying the unknown theories, i apologise i would be very brief because everything which i am saying is not true and perfect to be said because it is the awakening angle not changing anything in this world whenever we read poetry we cannot get mathematical expressions through it like begumpura shehar koo naam so there is no begumpura it is the beauty of dreamworld and in this world we imagine extreme peace and bliss of god. in the same way when we look at chaurrasii lakh janam it is the behavioural world where we behave like animals chaurrasii lakh is the symbolic expression like chaatii viikaar so in our random wandering mind we actually are animals and dead bodies so we find life after death of animal behaviour in this life not something after this life seeking your response not arguement Ok i understand you now....and agree with you ....but tell me what if you have started running towards that direction and but have not been able to fully correct it ur animal behaviour ...... ( remember every species has a fixed life span ) As it stands the idea of taking forward of deeds to another life might not sound logical but still can be implied by the inequalities we see in the actual life around us. If god is impartial than why are not all of us the same..yeah we can change our lives by doing deeds but our past lives decide where we begin that quest ... to me that does makes what do u say .... wjkk wjkf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tejvansh singh Posted July 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 to gursj dear friend there is no inequality on this earth and never view god as a dictatior being unequal with its human beings. there is no cause and effect relationship in our religion and nanak jeevatiam maar rahian aaise joog kammayeeya financial inequality regional inequlaity matters a least it is created by human beings on earth. make sure that operation of god was going on even before gurbani was written god is basically the nature around us ever equal it is not a ghost that is wandering around there are no fixed deeds or curriculum to obtain something it is the only message to human beings to practice and use nature of god in good way we are given all the dishes on a table now we have to choose the quantities so that we should not damage our health take care gursj 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gursj Posted July 18, 2003 Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 SSA I have thought about this nature aspect and believe me that nature is not perfect there are imperfections in nature but God is perfect......... would you agree you say there is no inequality but tell me what would have happ. to ur spritual life if you were born in the family of a taliban leader.... you and i are able to discuss all these things but believe me things would have been diff. than you might be convincing me with a rafla or revolver ... you would have to work much harder to achieve your spritual self if you were born into a family or region with a myopic view of the world.....and its not by chance ...the family that you are born into , the relgn. you have , and everything else you are today ... tell me what wrong has a child done who is born to a mother in uganda who has AIDS or for that matter in Somalia what do u thnk will happen to the spritual life of those children. Open your eyes , and look around you will understand that there are less fortunate people than you in this world what wrong have they done in this life . but than why do they suffer... Guru Nanak Dev Ji Says " Sunie duukh paap ka nash " but what sins that poor child do even before he was born , i dont understand that perhaps you do .. As far as the line you quote,,,it only means that if you are able to come over your material desires and you are not effected by the joys and sorrows of life.. nothing to dispute on that i thnk , but i thnk its out of context dont understand what you want to imply from that..... if you thnk. that there is nothing like life after death you might be true but there doesnt exsists any logic for us to believe that. So why not believe what Guru ji told us...? Wjkk Wjkf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tejvansh singh Posted July 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2003 just a one line question what was the situation for millions of years before guru sahib that means people lived in darkness 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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