Did Banda Bahadur Take Amrit Khanda Da Pahul?

[Genie Singh]

Did Banda Bahadur take Amrit Khanda da pahul?

As our previous discussions ends off, we got to this disputed historical ideas comparing some of the non-orthodox claims by user Sher which claim Banda Bahadur was an aestheic guru himself who wasn't a khalsa sikh. Nor had Singh as his surname. Perhaps we can come to some solid conclusive evidence of him have Singh or not having Singh in his name. Or about his name being Gurbaksh Singh?

Please see this for the previous conversation about this topic http://www.sikhawareness.com/index.php/topic/15215-does-the-9th-guru-profess-to-being-a-hindu/page-8

Edited December 21, 2013 by JatherdarSahib

[jaikaara]

Does it really matter ? If someone even claims he was muslim how much will it matter now ? The fact is he was on the forefront of the Khalsa Fauj and avenged the death of our Sahibzade, there might be some differences however the fact is he was one of the greatest Mahayoddhas in our history.

70% of the population was Hindu during Maharaja Ranjitsinghji's rule and of course many would have been part of the Akaal Sena then. I dont think it would be fair on our part to distinguish and dig out his zaat when our Guru Sahib bestowed a great responsibility on him.

[Genie Singh]

Does it really matter ? If someone even claims he was muslim how much will it matter now ? The fact is he was on the forefront of the Khalsa Fauj and avenged the death of our Sahibzade, there might be some differences however the fact is he was one of the greatest Mahayoddhas in our history.

70% of the population was Hindu during Maharaja Ranjitsinghji's rule and of course many would have been part of the Akaal Sena then. I dont think it would be fair on our part to distinguish and dig out his zaat when our Guru Sahib bestowed a great responsibility on him.

well it matters for what tends to follow in the discussion which is weird theories whereby sikhs never achieved sovereignty in the past and any dreams of it in the future can be dismissed on that basis.

[chatanga1]

It matters for the sake of knowing the truth. Overwhelming evidence telling us that Banda never gave up his Vaishnav faith and number of his soldiers may not have been Khalsas.

There is no definitive answer to this question. So whywaste brain space over it. There is no overwhelming evidence for either side.

[Genie Singh]

It matters for the sake of knowing the truth. Overwhelming evidence telling us that Banda never gave up his Vaishnav faith and number of his soldiers may not have been Khalsas. weird theories, you think so? weirder than Baba Nanak having theological debates with Pope?

As far as sovereignty is concerned, your assertions are about Khalsas not Sikhs. anyway, future sovereignty has not got much to do with the past. There has to be a first time at some stage.

Well I would say Guru Nanak vs Pope is even more weird due to it's lack of evidence when it should be an event which would have had alot of evidence especially the idea of as the vatican calls it "asiatic" visiting Italy during a period before asiatic mass immigration. I'm sure there would have been some wonder over this unusual fellow. Who seemed to be wearing a turban like muhammadens did so his visit would have attracted alot attention and would be mentioned in texts. Maybe it was and the church buried it next to all the pedophilia cases they buried.

Only way for me to settle this is with extensive extracts typed up.

[Genie Singh]

Sri Gur Panth Prakash 193

Dohra : The Guru admonished him for making fun of the saints,

As it always recoiled on those who indulged in such a mischief.

The petty pranksters, mendicants and low-caste nit-wit Dooms4 alone,

Indulged in such mean tricks to earn their livelihood. (15)

Chaupai : Then Banda declared himself to be the humble servant of the Guru,

And declared the Guru to be his spiritual guide and master.

He begged forgiveness of the Guru for his past misdeeds,

And promised never to indulge in any of his past activities. (16)

He proclaimed himself to be the humble servant of the Guru,

And promised to carryout any command of the Guru.

He beseeched the Guru to take him into his fold,

And consider him as the most intimate disciple of the Guru. (17)

Guru’s Blessings on Banda (Bahadur)

And Guru’s directions to Banda to proceed to Punjab

Dohra : As Banda beseeched the Guru to accept him as his disciple,

He bent on his knees with folded hands before the Guru.

The Guru felt pleased (at his change of heart and transformation),

And accepted Banda to be his disciple for his obedience. (1)

Chaupai : The Guru warned Banda of the rigours of becoming a Guru’s disciple,

As it involved an unconditional surrender of one’s complete self before the Guru,

Since accepting His way of life meant total surrender of one’s pride,

It was an extremely difficult and rigorous way of life. (2)

Since becoming a Guru’s Sikh meant complete dissolution of one’s ego,

It involved renouncing one’s family ties and accepting Guru’s ideological order.

It resembled the renunciation of an insect, which severed its links with its own species,

And forged an allegiance with another order of species of humming bees. (3)

Dohra : The tradition of Sikhism’s ideological code was as difficult to follow,

As a walk on the razor’s edge more sharp than a strand of hair.

A devotee must serve the guru with complete commitment and devotion,

And yet remain humble during his service to the Guru. (4)

Whatever conditions the Guru laid down before the supplicating Banda,

The Banda accepted all those stipulations in complete humility.

The Guru, then, named him as Banda Singh from his earlier name,

Which the Guru’s new disciple accepted in all humility and reverence. (5)

Chaupai : When Banda Singh beseeched the Guru repeatedly for mercy,

The Guru blessed him out of his benevolence and grace.

page 238 document page 193 SRI GUR PANTH PRAKASH (RATTAN SINGH BHANGOO) VOLUME I

2006 (Episodes 1 to 81) http://sikhinstitute.org/gpp_v1.pdf

Edited December 22, 2013 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

Banda Singh, then, sought Guru’s permission to allot him some task,

And begged for any kind of service that he could render unto the Guru. (6)

Satguru remarked that if Banda Singh was really worthy of a great task,

He must set out and destroy the murderers of Guru’s Sahibzadas.

The Guru directed him to destroy the Hill principalities after destroying Sirhind,

As that was the task assigned by the Guru to him. (7)

While protecting the Guru’s Sikhs, he must destroy the enemies of the Sikhs,

And must protect those as well who accept his sovereignty.

He must create anarchic conditions from Delhi onwards,

After that he must raze the whole of Punjab and Hill states to the ground. (8)

Dohra : There is a parasitical creeper that ruins a tree from the top,

This creeper is known by the name of “Bando” in the world.

Band Singh should become a similar poisonous creeper of the Guru,

And squeeze, sap and destroy the oppressive Mughal empire. (9)

Dohra : Whatever express wish the Guru conveyed to Banda Singh,

Banda Singh accepted to execute the Guru’s order in word and deed.

Soon this news spread out far and wide in the whole world,

That Guru had invested and annointed Banda Singh with his spiritual powers. (10)

The Guru then handed over his double-edged dagger to the Banda Singh,

Which he accepted and wore around his person as an armour.

Feeling enraged at the loss of their legitimate right of being Guru’s heirs,

The Khalsa Singhs stripped Banda Singh of Guru’s armour. (11)

Chaupai : As stripped Banda Singh complained to the Guru (about the Singh’s act),

The Guru went into peels of laughter with immense joy.

The Guru remarked that with Singh’s forcible possession of their legitimate right,

His mission of empowering the Khalsa Panth has been fulfilled. (12)

Thereafter, the Guru blessed Banda Singh with five of his arrows,

Remarking that these five arrows were invested with miraculous powers.

Whenever he felt it extremely necessary to shoot these arrows,

He should shoot only one of these arrows in extreme situations. (13)

These arrows had powers of activating dust-laden storms,

And impair the visibility and eyesight of the enemy force.

This raging blinding storm would force the enemy to turn their backs,

And help the user in destroying the enemy and winning the victory over them. (14)

page 240 document page 195 SRI GUR PANTH PRAKASH (RATTAN SINGH BHANGOO) VOLUME I

2006 (Episodes 1 to 81) http://sikhinstitute.org/gpp_v1.pdf

[Genie Singh]

How about currency from Banda Singh Bahadur's rule of Sahrind/Sirhind. It is said he established the nanakshahi coin when his rule started he ruled as a king but gave glory to akali baba satguru nanak dev ji.

https://www.panjabmall.com/storeproduct386.aspx

Edited December 22, 2013 by JatherdarSahib

[GtLoc]

Yes.

edit - The Hindus who tell you otherwise, have not.

Edited December 23, 2013 by GtLoc

[chatanga1]

what sort of definite answers you are looking for, maybe high resolution photographs? there is circumstantial evidence

circumstantial evidence can be taken both ways.

[OnPathToSikhi]

If there is evidence that the name Banda Bahadur (with or without Singh) was taken upon by Lachman Das himself then perhaps there is some scope of debate here. Also if there is evidence that Lachman Das never met the Guru then all the more better for some debate (does not make sense?). All other What/Where/Who/How, etc, etc does not matter. The fact is Banda Singh Bahadur is an integral part of the Sikh history and that will never change till humanity exists. Lachman Das became a Banda only with Guru's grace.

[Genie Singh]

I doubt he would have treated hindus much different. In the below historical extract Banda is said belonging to a new religion- now this means he can't be a traditional hindu and in calling him an infidel it is ruled out he was a muslim. With the awareness of Christianity by the mughals they haven't identified him as that. So two possibilities remain either he is a Sikh or formed his own new religion making himself the head of that religion.

Following on from the Ibratnama by Muhammad Qasim Ibrat 1723 (first witness account of Banda Bahadur's revolt).

{Please note Muahmmad Qasim refers to Banda as the Guru/Goroo aswell as the Dajjal(Anti-christ), he specifically mentions him being false in faith and an infidel(kaffir) }

page 127- Sikh History from Persian Sources - Translation by Irfan Habib

Appendix The English Report of Banda Bahadur's Arrival as Captive at Delhi. Extract from letter of John Surman and Edward Stephenson from Delhi

to Robert Hedges, President and Governor of Fort William, etc., Council in Bengal, dated 10 March 1716 [OS,=20 March 1716], Printed in C.R. Wilson, ed., The Early Annals of the English in Bengal, VII(2), The Surman Embassy, Calcutta, 1911, reprint, 1931, pp. 120-21. Spellings as in the Original.

The great Rebel Goroo {Banda} who has been for these 20 years so troublesome in the Subaship of Lahore is at length taken with all his family and attendance by Abdell Summaed Cawn the Suba of that province, some days ago they entered the City loaden with fetters, his whole attendance which were left alive being about Seven hundred and eight all severally mounted on Camels which were sent out of the City for that purpose, besides about two thousand heads stuck upon poles, being those who died by the sword in battle. He was carried into the presence of the King, and from thence to a close prison, He at present has His life prolonged with most of his mutsuddys in hopes to get an Account of his treasure in the several parts of his Kingdom and of those that assisted him, when afterwards he will be executed. For the rest there are 100 each day beheaded. It is not a little remarkable with what patience they undergo their fate, and to the last it has not been found that one apostatized from this new formed Religion.

Edited December 23, 2013 by JatherdarSahib

[Genie Singh]

Sikh History Persian sources 147-149

Banda Bahadur's Rebellion From Muhammad Hadi Hamwar Khan Razkiratu's Salatin Chaghata (1723)

IV

pp 108-113

The Defeat of the Doomed Sect, * False in religion, who call themselves the Followers of Nanak, when they are not the Followers of any old Religion.

....

{text ommitted describing Muslims who came to fight Banda Bahadur and those who had been killed, who had killed, the regions and nature of the war}

....

..The son of Suchanand, the peshkar of the late Wazir Khan and a group of Muslim men and women, whom on that day in their flight that evil crew [banda's followers] had killed, were found beneath some stones. On seeing such a sight, if one had a heart, one could not but break down and wonder on the changes of fortune.

At that time an Imperial officer, Mirza Rukn by name, came from the van and reported that fighting and killing was going on at the passages in the hills and Rustam Dil Khan Bahadur on reaching a white building on the hillcock had encircled it, believing that warring Infidel [banda] himself was inside that building. [He said, however, that] what he believed to be true was that person of false religion was really sitting under the tent on that hillcock and from there watching the endeavours of his devoted followers. His route [of retreat] is quite outside this hillcock [which Rustam Dil Khan had encircled]/

[Genie Singh]

Please also see this for more accounts on Banda Bahadur- about 14 page extract

http://www.scribd.com/doc/113672187/Sikh-History-from-Persian-Sources-Habib-Grewal

[dalsingh101]

Maybe it was and the church buried it next to all the pedophilia cases they buried.

^^

The above is funny and sickening at the same time....

[Manpreet Bhullar]

What does religion have to do with this? Obviously a lot of Sikhs and Hindus are commenting on these discussion boards, however I guarantee that non of you have or will ever have same courage as him, regardless of religion. So religion isn’t a factor. He was the mightiest warrior in the history of punjab and whole of india. You guys are Sikhs and Hindus. But can you match his courage ? Never. So what’s the point of these baseless discussions. View him as you like. Just admin cut off you idiots. Can’t believe you guys live in the 21st century. Shame on you 

[GurjantGnostic]

Look at the military model. You could have a soldier from another country in your forces. They could do great things while fighting for you. They..were still fighting for you. They take a beach at normandy, america won not wherever they might have originated. 

Clearly he was a Sikh, but even if he wasn't he was fighting within the Sikh Faujs. Who was he a Bhagat of? Are they Dharmi? Was he fighting for us for Dharam? Dead isuue. He was a Sikh and if he wasn't it doesn't matter. Khalsa lead all of Dharam. Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh. 

[Premi]

On 1/6/2022 at 6:48 AM, Manpreet Bhullar said:

What does religion have to do with this? Obviously a lot of Sikhs and Hindus are commenting on these discussion boards, however I guarantee that non of you have or will ever have same courage as him, regardless of religion. So religion isn’t a factor. He was the mightiest warrior in the history of punjab and whole of india. You guys are Sikhs and Hindus. But can you match his courage ? Never. So what’s the point of these baseless discussions. View him as you like. Just admin cut off you idiots. Can’t believe you guys live in the 21st century. Shame on you 

They were a Sikh of Dasam Patshah ji. 

Agree about the courage. 

And most regular members on this site are Sikhs; Hindus welcome of course, but I don't see too many on here.

[GurjantGnostic]

1 hour ago, Premi said:

They were a Sikh of Dasam Patshah ji. 

Agree about the courage. 

And most regular members on this site are Sikhs; Hindus welcome of course, but I don't see too many on here.

I'm cool with anyone being on here. Anyone who actually says who or what they really are. Like Suchi on ss. Was a "Sikh" at first and then he admit that he's actually a hindu with certain views, interests and ties to Sikhi and we can all converse just fine. Even talk about outlandish but interesting things. But the fakes. Mmm mmm. The fakes.