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Being Born Female Is Karmic Punishment?


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If one uses the argument that all beings have the same jot (light) in them, to justify women in Panj Pyaray, there is a problem with it. The jot exists in all beings, which includes males, females, transgenders, disabled people, homosexuals, animals, plants, etc. If one can see God is all (very few people), then it makes sense, but if one cannot, outer physical differences cannot be ignored.

For example: Khanda wala amrit (nectar) cannot be given to animals, even if the animal remembers his previous human life and requests for it. To do mercy on animals, we have other traditions/practices such as Chatka (quick slaughter), Karah Parshaad (Sacred pudding), etc.

A female saint (who can see God in all) will most likely, never volunteer to be part of Panj Pyaray, as she will know that it is God's command, to not participate in it.

In conclusion:

-  Women have been given the responsibility for the physical birth of a child (there is very minute role played by a man).

-  Men (5 Sikhs) have been given the responsibility for the spiritual birth of a person (women can help in that process too....there are other people who are helping out during the baptism ceremony....there is no restriction on women for those services).

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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I am so dissapointed in how some of the Singhs on here view women.  Here are some quotes from Gurbani below, which show how our Gurus thought of humans... and that they do not create such statuses and heirarchies in Sikhi.  And women are NOT I repeat NOT EVER compared to animals beneath men.  Gurbani says this HUMAN form is rare and is opportunity to find God... not only males. Women are not seen as animals - Please Seeker if you are still on here, do NOT listen to this Paapiman!  This is his OWN views of women - HE sees us the same as animals - this is just his own Ego speaking. 

Here is what Gurbani says about humans, read and decide for yourself.  Please don't think that Sikhism sees women as animals!  Even the Gurus stated all humans are the same.  They were against this nonesense of seeing women as lower than men. This is all cultural baggage...

Page 862, Line 6
ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਸਮਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਾ ॥੨॥੧॥
Gur parsāḏ Nānak samḏristā. ||2||1||
By Guru's Grace, Nanak looks upon all the same. ||2||1||

Page 981, Line 5
ਬਿਬੇਕੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਮਦਰਸੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਮਿਲੀਐ ਸੰਕ ਉਤਾਰੇ ॥
Bibek gurū gurū samaḏrasī ṯis milī▫ai sank uṯāre.
The Guru is wise and clear; the Guru looks upon all alike. Meeting with Him, doubt and skepticism are removed.

Page 1421, Line 11
ਵਾਹੁ ਵਾਹੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਸਤਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਨੋ ਸਮਤੁ ਸਭ ਕੋਇ ॥
vāhu vāhu saṯgur saṯ purakẖ hai jis no samaṯ sabẖ ko▫e.
Waaho! Waaho! Blessed and Great is the True Guru, the True Primal Being, who looks upon all alike.

Page 96, Line 9
ਏਕੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਮਾਟੀ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈਆ ॥
Ėko pavaṇ mātī sabẖ ekā sabẖ ekā joṯ sabā▫ī▫ā.
There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.
(Guru Ram Das Ji)

Sikhism does not care so much about what body we are in.  What matters is our soul, our actions, our intent.  Even this physical world is an illusion - did you know over 99.9999% of EVERYTHING is empty space?? And when you break down atoms, all that's left are a few subatomic particles which are ALL IDENTICAL.  And those too, pop into and out of existence seemingly randomly, but with an observer.  This reality is illusion.  Gender is only temporary and only for procreation. There is no spiritual 'birth' as that is our true identity anyway!  Amrit Sanchar is not a birth... it's an awakening - waking up from this physical dream to remember who we are. It's more a re-birth.  Men are no more responsible for it than anyone else. As we already are spiritual in nature!

Some on here keep spouting if Guru Ji wanted this... if Guru Ji wanted that... blah blah... but instead of guessing what he wanted, why not look at the proof we actually have!??? Gurbani, written BY GURUS gives us the answer.  In reality ALL the Gurus were ONE LIGHT.  Therefore what Guru Nanak Dev Ji said, is also what Guru Gobind Singh Ji echoed as they were the same light!  Read above... what does Gurbani say????  Gurbani does NOT say to see women as animals.  Gurbani does not say that males are higher, or that they get higher status or more privileges than women.  No Gurbani says ALL ARE MADE WITH THE SAME CLAY, THE LIGHT WITHIN ALL IS THE SAME!!!! even further is says outirght that THE GURU LOOKS UPON ALL ALIKE!!  THE GURU! The SAME LIGHT OF GURU THAT WAS GURU GOBIND SINGH JI!

I am sorry but I will ALWAYS PUT GURBANI ABOVE so called 'tradition' and upholding something just because that's how it was always done... Gurbani IS the actual words of GURU!!!!!!!!  So straight from the source... from gurbani, from the Gurus themselves.... ALL HUMANS are to be seen and treated alike! 

Paapiman, be careful you keep comparing being a women to an animal, or as a disease, and you never know in what body you might find yourself next time around... Please learn to control your male Ego!

p.s. I can post MANY more quotes from Gurbani to support this... I think this trumps cultural 'tradition'.  If you don't think it does, then I think your priorities are in wrong place!  Sorry if this sounds harsh... but I truly believe so!

 

 

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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There is no restriction on women taking part as one of the Panj Pyara either... This is just viewpoint of some and it's based entirely on ego. 

It's not based on ego. It's based on centuries of tradition. Even while Guru Ji was alive for 9 years after the first event, no females took part. As you have explained the SGPC,3HO and AKJ allow it to happen, (which personally I have no problem with), so are they free from ego?

Rather than repeat the same arguments and cover the same ground again, just clarify the situation to anyone that asks.

 

Edited by chatanga1
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It's not based on ego. It's based on centuries of tradition. Even while Guru Ji was alive for 9 years after the first event, no females took part. As you have explained the SGPC,3HO and AKJ allow it to happen, (which personally I have no problem with), so are they free from ego?

Rather than repeat the same arguments and cover the same ground again, just clarify the situation to anyone that asks.

 

Please scroll up... I changed my post lol.  I had to work for a bit and came back and added why I believe Gurbani trumps tradition... the Gurus were all ONE light correct?  That means what Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught, is same as Guru Gobind SIngh Ji.  They were all the ONE light of Guru Nanak... in fact even referred to as tenth Nanak... correct? That means we actually DO have direct Gurus words in writing.  We don't have to guess just based on 'tradition'.  We have the actual answers.  Just because we can't find evidence on something doesn't mean it didn't exist.  If we lived by that then we'd still be in stone ages. So we can go to Gurbani to see how the Gurus viewed all humans... and if they wrote anything which would DIRECTLY tell us whether or not women should be given less privileges than men.  Look above for just a few of the quotes from Gurbani on how the Gurus actually viewed all of us humans...

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It's not based on ego. It's based on centuries of tradition. Even while Guru Ji was alive for 9 years after the first event, no females took part. As you have explained the SGPC,3HO and AKJ allow it to happen, (which personally I have no problem with), so are they free from ego?

Rather than repeat the same arguments and cover the same ground again, just clarify the situation to anyone that asks.

 

Still doesn't mean women were not allowed... It just means that none did during that time... or more accurately... we can't find evidence written down that there were.  It doesn't mean that there were none.  We can barely piece together who were the Panj Pyaras in Amrit Sanchars immediately after the first one on that first day in 1699. let alone who participated in ones that took place afterward.  And even if in those 9 years there were no females at all.. it still doesn't mean that women weren't allowed by Guru Ji. It only means that none did it, but maybe it was due to other commitments, or that they were busy with langar etc.  Maybe they didn't want to, or didn't think they could... but none of that actually proves what Guru Gobind SIngh Ji himself actually WANTED or intended.  In his 52 Hukams, he didn't write anything at all... and that would have been the place to lay our rules about women being disallwoed from things.  As for men being the ones who volunteered... there were far more men present that day than women, and most also did not volunteer to give their heads.  Yet I am willing to bet some of them acted as Panj Pyaras in Amrit Sanchars that happened after that.  They were just as guilty of not giving their head - so using the excuse that women never gave theirs, is a moot point. Only five people did. Simply having the same thing between your legs does not mean you have special privilege.  I am sure some people had the same hair colour, some people had the same height etc. All these are just phsyical traits... they mean nothing.  Anyway please read my post above about why I fully and deeply believe in Gurbani and that it trumps any so called traditions... because this is actual words of our Gurus....  but what is being done, is tradition is actually trumping Gurbani!  I think this is wrong!

Also think of it this way... what if you are wrong? How would you want Guru Ji to look at you?

Lets say you are wrong, and Guru Ji meant for all humans to be treated equally - and this is evident in Gurbani - and you follow tradition instead of Gurbani.  Guru will see you as favouring ritual over Gurbani, further putting people into statuses and heirarchies... delving further into duality.  Since this is born out of Ego... wanting to be higher status than someone, wanting to have more privilege than someone else... I don't think it would be looked upon favourably since you would not be doing it for genuine and good reasons.

Let's say however that you were right.... Do you think you would be faulted or looked down upon by our Guru for following principles in Gurbani of seeing all equally and giving everyone the same opportuniteis? For having compassion and empathy and seeing all humans as one? Since this is done out of love and compassion Guru Ji would have nothing to fault you with....

Same principle an be applied to Brahmans... there is no rule saying they MUST treat low caste badly.  They CHOOSE to because they see themselves as higher and see the low caste as being under punishmnent.  However if a Brahmin embodies compassion (and there is a good story of one doing so... he washes their hair, feeds them etc and there is a video about him) even if God meant for those low caste to be punshed, I highly doubt that anyone having compassion for another human and seeing all humans as equal would be looked down upon.  However, if God meant for all humans to be equal, and that Brahmin is treating the low caste badly, that is out of his own ego and sense of superiority.  Then I think he is in trouble!  THIS is where we as humans have choices. 

Sorry if I am in disagreement with you... I truly believe Gurbani trumps tradition because it's actual words of our Gurus who were all in reality the same ONE light of Guru Nanak Dev Ji.  I know tradition is important to some people as it's a big part of culture... but I don't think our Gurus put so much importance on Tradition since they got rid of many traditions and rituals.  I believe in only what they actually wrote... I put SGGSJ above ALL. If you still disagree with me, at least recognize that I am not arriving at this conclusion out of disrespect of anything related to Sikhi.

Edited by Satkirin_Kaur
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Well, you comparing her gender's worth as being like an animal compared to males might have had something to do with it! 

Satkirin, please read what paapiman has posted in true nature; he did NOT compare women to animal; he is just giving an example......try to understand that he is giving an example to derive his point to counter-argument yours. He has nowhere suggested that women are animals......STOP taking the words so literally.

I personally 100% NEITHER support your arguments NOR support paapiman's. Just each of you need to understand what the other person has written instead of preconceived notion before posting your replies.

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Satkirin, please read what paapiman has posted in true nature; he did NOT compare women to animal; he is just giving an example......try to understand that he is giving an example to derive his point to counter-argument yours. He has nowhere suggested that women are animals......STOP taking the words so literally.

I personally 100% NEITHER support your arguments NOR support paapiman's. Just each of you need to understand what the other person has written instead of preconceived notion before posting your replies.

He uses the comparison of  animals < humans (animals being lower than humans and so they are not given equal rights) to explain women < men.  This is wrong thinking. 

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Some posters have such burning anger in your replies to each other!! Instead of trying to understand each other some posters just pour gasoline on the fire! It is possible to disagree while still being civil with each other.

Exactly, it's not like we can change anything on this forum.

 

Have you had a chance to read the topic "Mehma Parkash on the role of the Poets" in Dasam Granth section of this forum? It is a very interesting read.

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  • 9 months later...
Guest Jaspal SIngh

weheguru

Actually in Gurbani God is refered to as lord Husband and our souls are female (men and woman) therefore even spiritually, men are female. As the 5 pyara are a representation of Weheguru (they were given such high regard even Guru Gobind Singh Ji listened to their hukam). This is why they have to be male. This is not a sexist thing as all souls are regarded female.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Guest Jaspal SIngh said:

weheguru

Actually in Gurbani God is refered to as lord Husband and our souls are female (men and woman) therefore even spiritually, men are female. As the 5 pyara are a representation of Weheguru (they were given such high regard even Guru Gobind Singh Ji listened to their hukam). This is why they have to be male. This is not a sexist thing as all souls are regarded female.

 

 

 

 

This is absolutely absurd! You just got finished saying even males are females, so even they could not represent Waheguru then using your logic.

Or else you are saying male humans are a step above female humans in that they can represent Waheguru somehow, meaning somehow a physical male human has something that females don't have? Spiritually speaking. But you just said that even male humans are female souls.

By the way Waheguru is genderless having no form!

You have to realize this is metaphor being used. Do you need a dictionary to learn what metaphor means?

The love between a husband and wife in this lifetime, is used as a metaphor to explain the merging between soul and Waheguru.  The ONLY reason bride / female is used in the METAPHOR to explain that humans are ALL female, is only because in this life, it was traditional (not so any more in present times) that the bride left her family home and joined her husband in his home and marriage and love have been seen as the most powerful human relationship so no wonder it was used as the metaphor. 

Thus the metaphor - that our souls leave this place to join Waheguru. So in that way we are all the brides and Waheguru is husband. But this is only using metaphor to explain the true meaning, something which is difficult to explain in human terms. Without metaphor, there would be no way to explain spirituality at all! 

It is only metaphor and nothing else.  Please learn to understand how metaphor works!
There is in actuality NO gender. And there is no marriage (in human terms). Our souls, and Waheguru do not have gender as ultimate reality is formless.  And in reality, they are ONE and the same anyway! There is no difference in ultimate reality terms. 

So in reality, it is the SOUL representing Waheguru / Guru when acting as Punj Pyaras and NOT the physical body. And since ALL humans have the SAME GENDERLESS soul, and in reality ALL SOULS ARE ONE, then of course ANYONE can do this seva! To say otherwise is absurd! 

To say that human males can represent Waheguru but not human females is saying that somehow human males are higher spiritual level or status, or have something which makes them closer to (or more like) Waheguru than females. This is wrong. All human souls are the same!

You don't even see that by saying that, you ARE very much condemning females to an inferior existence, seen as inferior in eyes of our Creator. Waheguru did not create us to be in hierarchies. That is the whole reason Khalsa was created in first place!  To put EVERYONE on same level. No matter what caste, colour, gender, rich/poor.  

Anyone who takes Amrit all make the exact SAME commitments. ALL give their heads equally. You can't tell some Amritdharis that they are fully Khalsa and have full rights as Khalsa including ability to initiate others, while telling others that even though they took the same Amrit, and gave their head the same, and made same commitments, they will never be truly fully member of Khalsa because they can never have full rights as a member of Khalsa. There is no two different levels of being Amritdhari. Either you are or you are not. There is no male Khalsa and female Khalsa. 

 

 

 

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true nature of human being is the soul. As this is the true nature of someone, whether male or female, then either can realize enlightenment to such a degree that they can become a bhramgyani b/c that is their real nature. This realization comes about through numerous janams of paying off debt and eventually realizing the Grace of Guru ji.... or through complete and total surrender (also a kind of grace). Complete surrender can theoretically happen to anyone. 

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  • 4 months later...
  • 1 year later...
On 8/17/2015 at 12:08 PM, paapiman said:

 

It is noting to do with male reproductive fluid, but with the actual make-up of male body, which is different from a female body.

 

 

Men giving birth to children, using medical technology, is against nature. Human female body has been designed to keep the child in womb and give birth. People can change their sex too, by surgeries. Please don't talk about rare cases or cases, where medical technology has been used. Also, men's role in child birth is very minute, compared to that of a woman.

Additionally, mother gets the advantage to change the destiny of the child (while in womb), not the father. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

 

 

A female body was designed by God to give birth, male body was not. Even males can question, why cannot we (naturally) give birth to a child? Don't you think, this is biased towards females

Another fact in Sikhism - Killing of a woman is described as a major sin in Sikhism, not that of a man. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

 

Well, men need women, to come into this world. A male can only impregnate a woman, but the women can keep aborting the vessel. Don't you think, this is biased towards females?

God has given optimum rights to both, males and females, depending on the make-up of their bodies. Female body is incapable of producing amrit. Details will come later.

Bhul chuk maaf

I think too much over analyzing happening here. 

Women are allowed initiation into the Khalsa. Khalsa is a saint soldier who is PURE, and can through this purity MERGE with the PURE ONE-->GOD.  Lets all try to become Pure first in all actions and thoughts.

Guru Gobind Singh: Father of the Khalsa...is the NIRGUN ROOP OF AKAL 

Mata Sahib Kaur - MOTHER of the Khalsa --is the SARGUN ROOP OF AKAL or AKAL SHAKTI.  Manifestation of the NIRGUN ROOP.

There is only ONE GOD ==NIRGUN ROOP OR SARGUN ROOP. Lets try to get out of DUALITY, and focus on the "oneness".

The khalsa is equal part female and male. Khalsa is for all genders.  This tradition of women not being in the Panj Pyare. Perhaps because the original Panj Pyare were all men.  It would have been nice if a women had volunteered her HEAD when the KHALSA was originally created in 1699, as that did not happen.  As a women I am very strong and confident in myself, and believe my father, Guru Ji, and don't need to question gender equality. We know our religion is all about Gender Equality, so why keep bringing something up that has no relevance.

 If you feel good if women are part of the 5, than go for it --take amrit there,  However, there is nothing wrong with tradition, and the 5 being men.  Lets become Pure, and uphold the values of the Khalsa.

This questioning is a slippery slope, as so many things don't make sense. However, as you start praying the answers come to you. 

Crsytal - Just pray to Guru Ji, and ask him this question. He will answer...

 

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  • 2 years later...

 

Being Born Female Is Karmic Punishment?

No, it is not and it can never be a punishment.  

 

As long as spirituality is concerned in the eyes of Guru Jee, it is purity and love for Waheguru alone which counts.

Let us see what does Guru Jee tells us in this respect:

 

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਧਿਆਇਨਿ ਸਚੁ ॥

Naanak Sach Dhhiaaein Sach ||

O Nanak, true are those who meditate on the True One.

 

ਜੋ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮੇ ਸੁ ਕਚੁ ਨਿਕਚੁ ॥੧॥

Jo Mar Janmae S Kach Nikach ||1||

Those who are subject to birth and death are totally false. 

 

Guru Jee does not make distinctions on the containers/shapes, sizes nor colors, for it is the contents( soul purity) that counts in His eyes.

 

SSA.

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