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Hindu Khalsa Flags of 18th-19th Century


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I dont think there was a uniform sikh flag at the time. Is this not a modern invention with the national states? or? In most Sikh flags of the 18-19th century you often see either Chandi or shastars. They all represent the same though: War, strength, power, majesty, independance.

Edited by amardeep
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1 hour ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Please tell me how I can judge someone is a Sant or not??

I can answer your questions but it will going off topic, so sorry.

 

58 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Chandi or shastars. They all represent the same though: War, strength, power, majesty, independance

It just makes sense. Chandi, the goddess of war ( remember she is neither hindu nor sikhm she is the Adi Shakti of Akal Purakh with a specific purpose of winning wars), & the venerated shashtars "Peer" are the only things that can be used to instill courage & bravery amongst Sikh warriors of those times.

So if a Sikh Bodybuilder hangs a poster of Arnold or some other sportsperson to get inspired, will you also accuse him of worshipping Arnold & following his cult lol ?

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On 05/04/2016 at 9:33 PM, kdsingh80 said:

Question to all scholar of SA , Is this propaganda or truth?

Back then all regiments were issued with two flags. One tended a green/red flag which was the 'Royal House' flag - the other flag could be blue/black/yellow/red/green/white and was the Regimental Flag. Where as most Royal Flags seem similar, Regimental Flags tended to vary based on the decision of the regimental commander. Some used Hindu gods/goddesses, others used symbols associated with Punjab/Indo-Aryan/Aborigine/First Indus Civilization, basically anything that reflected their heritage and a sense of destiny rather than personal religous beliefs.

Could you imagine if an Italian created a website where he tried to appropriate British Royal Navy warships simply because they were named after Roman and Ancient Greek gods/goddesses? These guys just reflect how dim Sikhs in the West generally are when it comes to things that dont involve making money. I dont know how anyone can take them seriously.

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Cdn Sikh Girl,

English translations sometimes inaccurate.  You have to be careful.  I'm not an expert but I will try and clarify:

Ŧithai sohan pancẖ parvāṇ. Naḏrī karam pavai nīsāṇ.

Titha= There, Sohan= charming/beautiful, Panch= Five, Parvaan= Approved (as in approved by God, not themselves).

"There (sit) the Five Chosen in beauty."

Nadri (gaze/look, from Arabic word Nazir), Karam (=grace/kindness) pavai (verb. meaning 'to bestow') Nisaan (Nishaan, meaning sign or mark).

"By kindness of God's gaze their signs are shown".

There are probably errors here, but I hope it gives you a better idea.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rock said:

It just makes sense. Chandi, the goddess of war ( remember she is neither hindu nor sikhm she is the Adi Shakti of Akal Purakh with a specific purpose of winning wars), & the venerated shashtars "Peer" are the only things that can be used to instill courage & bravery amongst Sikh warriors of those times.

This is not convincing reaosning to my mind.

Firstly you have dhadhi varan, which narrated about historic warriors.

If you were going to use Hindu narratives- you have Krishna slaying demons, Raamachandra and Hanuman winning a battle, Shiva also was victorious over demons.  etc  So why Devi's in particular? There are many war narratives in Hindu texts.

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So the author of the article linked in the OP has stated Sikhi is basically just Hinduism ( or a sect of Hinduism) and that we should accept it. 

If so then why such a fight from most Sikhs who vehemently state that Sikhi DISTINCT? 

Is it true anyway what they said about khanda being a Hindu symbol? I never knew that before. 

 

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1 hour ago, Guest guest said:

This is not convincing reaosning to my mind.

Firstly you have dhadhi varan, which narrated about historic warriors.

If you were going to use Hindu narratives- you have Krishna slaying demons, Raamachandra and Hanuman winning a battle, Shiva also was victorious over demons.  etc  So why Devi's in particular? There are many war narratives in Hindu texts.

If you read Dasam Granth you can know about all of the above.  Three major compositions are devoted to the war prowess of Chandi. You also read about other warriors like Krishna, Ramchandra, Hanuman, Sarbloh, & even demons.

If you have a text which gives knowledge about all the above then its not a far stretch if some-one painted a picture of Chandi sitting on tiger.

Many of us have tigers as wallpapers so do we become bhagats of chandi because tiger is the ride of Chandi or he-man ? lol

1440034122110

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12 hours ago, Rock said:

Many of us have tigers as wallpapers so do we become bhagats of chandi because tiger is the ride of Chandi or he-man ? lol

Again crooked reasoning.  A generic picture of a tiger and a picture of a goddess is not same thing.

It would be more accurate- by your own reasoning- to ask that if you had wallpaper of goddess on your wallpaper, would you be a bhagat?  and i think you would on some level.

Again, muslims and communists for example didnt need narratives of goddesses to instill militarism in the followers.

I did not know there were narratives of Krishna, Raam and Hanuman slaying demons in Dasam Granth.  Are you sure?

btw- im not saying that Dasam Granth or these kind of flags do imply devi bhagti.

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4 minutes ago, Guest guest said:

I did not know there were narratives of Krishna, Raam and Hanuman slaying demons in Dasam Granth.  Are you sure?

Guest jee - There are two Gurbanis named as Sri Krishan Avtar jee and Sri Ram Avtar jee (both part of Sri Chaubis Avtar Sahib jee) in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, which talk about the exploits of these great demi-Gods.

Anyways, please start a new topic, if you want to discuss this in details.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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14 hours ago, Koi said:

Jai Baba He Man!

Jokes aside, you can certainly worship He-Man as an image of God and use that to reach enlightenment.

However the show itself is not structured that way. They are feeding you mythology through and through but it has no depth, no spiritual significance. No Nutrition for the Soul. It is just for entertainment.

This is called mythological "junk food". Avengers, Batman, Superman (jesus) are all mythological junk foods.

He-Man et al, is as much mythology as is contained in Guru Granth Sahib and other Puran. However the Mythology in Guru Granth Sahib and Puran is tied to deeper meanings. They are lessons in spirituality. They are full of nutrition for the soul if you look at them and consume them in the way they are intended.
This is mythological "healthy food".

Most people do not consume these "foods" the way they are meant to be consumed and thus they miss out on the nutrition.

A GurSikh, through the teachings of the Guru, learns to consume this food, and thus gets a taste of Amrit, the nutrition within.

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Jerry Coutinho

Hello Everyone,

Before I make any comments, I would clarify that I do not follow either Hinduism or Sikhism, but am an Indophile, and by virtue of being a Doctorate candidate in social sciences (Indology) , have studied all eastern religions to some extent. I found this site very informative about Sikhism and all the discussions are well-researched and I congratulate you for creating such a body of knowledge about Sikhism. But since many of you wrote about The One God, I just wanted to add what I have learned from my research. All eastern religions, including Hinduism or more appropriately, Vedanta-(Advaita in particular, but even Dvaita if one understands it well), Buddhism, Sikhism and even other religions( Bon, etc, which would not be relevant here), are ultimately directed towards that 'One God'. As far as I could gather, Sikhism has it's roots in the Vedic philosophy of the Advaita. Advaita essentially says that all form, everything that exists, is a part of what call be called the Primordial Conscience, which everyone calls as God. In Sikhism, the Priordial conscience is called Waheguru. But Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma are not Gods, they are not even Demi-Gods, they are just metaphors for that One God, and this is at the core of Hindusim.

The difference lies here, in Sikhism, the ways to attain that God is one, the one true path shown by the Gurus. In other religions, there are different paths, including  both Buddhism and Hinduism. I will cover Buddhism only slightly to set a perspective and will talk about Hindusim in more detail, as it is more closely related to Sikhism. In Buddhism, you have 2 main paths, Vajrayana, the tantrik path and Mahayana, which is more similar to Sikhism, and does not believe in rituals. But either of these paths are acceptable as per Buddhist tradition and in fact, Vajrayana was taught only to a select coterie of reliable students by Buddha, the ones, he believed, had full control on their urges as this path unlocks immense powers to the human form. But the bottom-line is that the final aim is unambiguous, just the vehicles are different.

Now, Hinduism also has different paths, they are known as Yogas, namely, Bhakti Yoga, Sankhya Yoga, Hatha Yoga, etc. Bhakti Yoga is all about full surrender to God, and absolute devotion, no-matter the consequence. Other paths are about understanding Tatva(the higher knowledge) through meditation and following a strictly disciplined life and then seeing the true light (Eknoor) or Divya Jyoti. But the final goal is the same.

Talking about Gods and Demi Gods, they are just metaphors. There is no Shiva as a person, nor is there Ram, or Krishna, there is no name for God, these are just the forms in which Hindus worship the Prime Mover. Shiva is described as having all the three Gunas, viz. Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, using them as and when needed, and yet being devoid of all the three Gunas, and being beyond them. So, we need to understand that eastern philosophy is not to be taken at face-value, it is very deep, profound, and admittedly beautiful. When Guru Gobind Singh, in Dasam Granth, composed the Shabad Deh Shiva, he is referencing the Prime Mover, though in the Nirvikaar, Nirgun form, as per the Sikh tradition.  And the millions of Demi-Gods represent one unique power of creation, each. Though , it is nowhere recommended in Hindu Vedantic traditions to worship either idols or Demi-Gods.

Now, as far as idol worship in Hindusim is concerned, it is another vehicle, and to stress it here, not a path, just a vehicle. The idea is that if your attention is directed to an object and your feelings are pure, then you can meditate upon that object to attain higher states of Sadhana, without much hassle. On the other hand, if you try and meditate without a  focus, then it is difficult. And this is a fact that I can endorse from my own experience as well. But even in Hinduism, it is recommended that you leave your  fetish and go beyond it as soon as you are adept at the technique of focusing your mind. At this higher stage, you do not differentiate between yourself, other, or for that matter, any of the created universe, that becomes one with the 'One True Light'.  So, essentially, this idol worship was meant to be a form of guided meditation, as is also done in Buddhism and if I am not confused, even in Jainism(though need to check) and even in Bon religion.

If you have read till here, I would presume, that you would also read a little more to let me finish. Christianity underwent reformation to attain its present position in the West, and consequently, it became much more tolerant and survived to this day. Islam and Judaism, had no reformations. Judaism lost its sheen long back and Islam is becoming a global threat. However, the beauty of eastern religions is that they are inherently peaceful. Sikhsim, I surmise, was a reformist movement in the Indian religious traditions just like Buddhism and Jainism. The contemporary face of all these religions may seem different, the practices may also seem different, but one has to look beyond the obvious, and see the basic import,  and then you would realize that all these religions are the same. And, yes, I mean absolutely the same. Just the paths are different. You people have a beautiful spiritual tradition, unlike the west or the orient. Hope to learn more and contribute more. Thanks for reading. 

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I am impressed by your knowledge Jerry.

6 hours ago, Guest Jerry Coutinho said:

But since many of you wrote about The One God, I just wanted to add what I have learned from my research. All eastern religions, including Hinduism or more appropriately, Vedanta-(Advaita in particular, but even Dvaita if one understands it well), Buddhism, Sikhism and even other religions( Bon, etc, which would not be relevant here), are ultimately directed towards that 'One God'.

Exactly.

 

On Vishisht Advait Philosophy

Quote

As far as I could gather, Sikhism has it's roots in the Vedic philosophy of the Advaita. Advaita essentially says that all form, everything that exists, is a part of what call be called the Primordial Conscience, which everyone calls as God.

Close. It's not exactly Advaita Philosophy. Guru Granth Sahib expresses the Vishishta Advaita Philosophy.

That everyone is essentially Supreme Consciousness but also separate from Supreme Consciousness. We are part of that Supreme Consciousness but have been separate due to our indulgence in human experience, so our goal is to merge back. Our goal in this life, is to meet Supreme Consciousness.

 


On Hinduism

Quote

In Sikhism, the Priordial conscience is called Waheguru. But Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma are not Gods, they are not even Demi-Gods, they are just metaphors for that One God, and this is at the core of Hindusim.

Exactly!

But I would add that Hinduism is not one religion. Hinduism in an umbrella term for multiple religions.

I repeat. Hinduism is an umbrella term used by Westerners and Indians to refer to the thousands on Indian religions that exist in India.

There is no such thing as a "Hinduism".

So India had many many different philosophies that gave birth to countless religions.

In one philosophy, Brahma ji is almighty lord. In this philosophy, Brahma ji creates, preserves and destroys however, the followers talked about his creative trait a lot. He gives birth to the thousand petaled lotus that is a symbol of multi-layered reality, in which Brahma ji, parmatma, resides. The followers of this philosophy have all passed away.

In another philosophy, Vishnu ji is almighty lord. In this philosophy, Vishnu ji creates, preserves and destroys however, the followers talked about his preservative trait a lot. Like they talked about stories of Vishnu ji preserving Prahlaad's life, saving him from Hiranyakashap. He preserved the life of Gaj, elephant, who was ensnared by a crocodile. He preserved Dropadi's honour when she was lost in a gamble and was being molested by the winning party. Like that. Narad ji followed this philosophy.

In another philosophy, Shiv ji is almighty lord. In this philosophy, the destructive trait of the almighty lord is emphasized a lot. Shiv ji creates, preserves and destroys however, the followers emphasized his destructive trait. They talked about Shiv ji destroying things, like ignorance. There are old Nataraj moortis that show Shiv ji doing the tandav on a dwarf. The dwarf symbolizes ignorance and Nataraj is doing tandav (destructive dance), Shiv ji is destroying ignorance. Adi Shankar ji followed this philosophy.

 

 

On Path shown by the Guru

Quote

The difference lies here,

There are differences but not the ones you describe.

Quote

in Sikhism, the ways to attain that God is one, the one true path shown by the Gurus.

In all other Indian religions, the one true path for the devotee (sikh) is the one shown by his Guru(s).

Quote

In other religions, there are different paths, including  both Buddhism and Hinduism.

E.g. for Boddhis the one true path is shown by their Guru Siddarth Gautam, who is known as Buddha. 

So this is a misunderstanding.

 

On Rituals

Quote

In Buddhism, you have 2 main paths, Vajrayana, the tantrik path and Mahayana, which is more similar to Sikhism, and does not believe in rituals.

Depends on what is meant by "belief in ritual" because there are plenty of rituals in Sikhism and Mahayana buddhism.

Religions say different things with regards to ritual. One would have to closely observe what is meant by ritual and how it a ritual to be performed, and what exactly is to be believed about it.

 

On Paths to God

Quote

Now, Hinduism also has different paths, they are known as Yogas, namely, Bhakti Yoga, Sankhya Yoga, Hatha Yoga, etc.

These are not necessarily separate paths.

Remember that Hinduism is an umbrella term for thousands of Indian religions. So there are many paths/religions that are quite distinct from each other.

But these ones you describe are not the religions.

Quote

Bhakti Yoga is all about full surrender to God, and absolute devotion, no-matter the consequence. Other paths are about understanding Tatva(the higher knowledge) through meditation and following a strictly disciplined life and then seeing the true light (Eknoor) or Divya Jyoti. But the final goal is the same.

What you mentioned as "other paths" is not a different path to bhakti yoga. It's because they blend into each other.

This is the path to God in Sikhism - > Guru Granth Sahib describes  - Bhakti yoga, Gyan Yoga, Karma Yoga and Raj Yoga - as described by Bhagwad Gita, in extraordinary detail. All of these paths are mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib even though they might not be called by those names.

 

 

On Indian Philosophies

Quote

Talking about Gods and Demi Gods, they are just metaphors. There is no Shiva as a person, nor is there Ram, or Krishna, there is no name for God, these are just the forms in which Hindus worship the Prime Mover. 

They do this in Guru Granth Sahib as well.

Quote

Shiva is described as having all the three Gunas, viz. Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, using them as and when needed, and yet being devoid of all the three Gunas, and being beyond them.

 

This is called the - Shaiva Philosophy.

Not all Hindus worship Shiv ji however.
Those authors of Guru Granth Sahib do not worship Shiv ji. In Guru Granth Sahib, Nam Dev ji says - Do not worship Shiv, Bhairav, Devi, Shakti, etc. only worship Ram, as also instructed by Bhagavad Gita. -874

The one where Ram (and Krishna, Vishnu) is worshipped is known as - Vaishnav Philosophy.
In Guru Granth Sahib, Guru Arjun Dev ji says - Those are Vaishnavs on whom Vishnu ji is himself happy. They remain detached from Vishnu ji's maya, they remain detached from the world that Vishnu ji has created. -274

 

Quote

So, we need to understand that eastern philosophy is not to be taken at face-value, it is very deep, profound, and admittedly beautiful.

Exactly.

Quote

When Guru Gobind Singh, in Dasam Granth, composed the Shabad Deh Shiva, he is referencing the Prime Mover, though in the Nirvikaar, Nirgun form, as per the Sikh tradition.  And the millions of Demi-Gods represent one unique power of creation, each.

Exactly.

Even though Guru Sahib mentions "Shiva" (not to be confused with masculine Shiv, here it is - Shiva - feminine, Goddess, when read in context), he is referring to the Prime Mover and using the Goddess imagery as something to contemplate for the image-seeking mind.

 

Quote

Though , it is nowhere recommended in Hindu Vedantic traditions to worship either idols or Demi-Gods.

That is because Vedant is its own thing. In Vedant, Brahma ji is worshipped.

In one of the Upnishads, it is mentioned that - Brahma is not that which one sees, Brahma is that whereby one sees.

 

On Idol Worship

Quote

Now, as far as idol worship in Hindusim is concerned, it is another vehicle, and to stress it here, not a path, just a vehicle. The idea is that if your attention is directed to an object and your feelings are pure, then you can meditate upon that object to attain higher states of Sadhana, without much hassle. On the other hand, if you try and meditate without a  focus, then it is difficult. And this is a fact that I can endorse from my own experience as well.

Exactly.

Quote

But even in Hinduism, it is recommended that you leave your  fetish and go beyond it as soon as you are adept at the technique of focusing your mind. At this higher stage, you do not differentiate between yourself, other, or for that matter, any of the created universe, that becomes one with the 'One True Light'.  So, essentially, this idol worship was meant to be a form of guided meditation, as is also done in Buddhism and if I am not confused, even in Jainism(though need to check) and even in Bon religion.

Exactly.

Guru Arjun Dev ji say - Such a yogi, who cuts desires of material and worldly desires, is found by great fortune. Serve and worship the murti, idol, of such a yogi, Guru Arjun says, I lick his feet. -208

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17 hours ago, Guest Jerry Coutinho said:

Hello Everyone,

Before I make any comments, I would clarify that I do not follow either Hinduism or Sikhism, but am an Indophile, and by virtue of being a Doctorate candidate in social sciences (Indology) , have studied all eastern religions to some extent. I found this site very informative about Sikhism and all the discussions are well-researched and I congratulate you for creating such a body of knowledge about Sikhism. But since many of you wrote about The One God, I just wanted to add what I have learned from my research. All eastern religions, including Hinduism or more appropriately, Vedanta-(Advaita in particular, but even Dvaita if one understands it well), Buddhism, Sikhism and even other religions( Bon, etc, which would not be relevant here), are ultimately directed towards that 'One God'. As far as I could gather, Sikhism has it's roots in the Vedic philosophy of the Advaita. Advaita essentially says that all form, everything that exists, is a part of what call be called the Primordial Conscience, which everyone calls as God. In Sikhism, the Priordial conscience is called Waheguru. But Shiva, Vishnu, and Brahma are not Gods, they are not even Demi-Gods, they are just metaphors for that One God, and this is at the core of Hindusim.

The difference lies here, in Sikhism, the ways to attain that God is one, the one true path shown by the Gurus. In other religions, there are different paths, including  both Buddhism and Hinduism. I will cover Buddhism only slightly to set a perspective and will talk about Hindusim in more detail, as it is more closely related to Sikhism. In Buddhism, you have 2 main paths, Vajrayana, the tantrik path and Mahayana, which is more similar to Sikhism, and does not believe in rituals. But either of these paths are acceptable as per Buddhist tradition and in fact, Vajrayana was taught only to a select coterie of reliable students by Buddha, the ones, he believed, had full control on their urges as this path unlocks immense powers to the human form. But the bottom-line is that the final aim is unambiguous, just the vehicles are different.

Now, Hinduism also has different paths, they are known as Yogas, namely, Bhakti Yoga, Sankhya Yoga, Hatha Yoga, etc. Bhakti Yoga is all about full surrender to God, and absolute devotion, no-matter the consequence. Other paths are about understanding Tatva(the higher knowledge) through meditation and following a strictly disciplined life and then seeing the true light (Eknoor) or Divya Jyoti. But the final goal is the same.

Talking about Gods and Demi Gods, they are just metaphors. There is no Shiva as a person, nor is there Ram, or Krishna, there is no name for God, these are just the forms in which Hindus worship the Prime Mover. Shiva is described as having all the three Gunas, viz. Sattva, Rajas and Tamas, using them as and when needed, and yet being devoid of all the three Gunas, and being beyond them. So, we need to understand that eastern philosophy is not to be taken at face-value, it is very deep, profound, and admittedly beautiful. When Guru Gobind Singh, in Dasam Granth, composed the Shabad Deh Shiva, he is referencing the Prime Mover, though in the Nirvikaar, Nirgun form, as per the Sikh tradition.  And the millions of Demi-Gods represent one unique power of creation, each. Though , it is nowhere recommended in Hindu Vedantic traditions to worship either idols or Demi-Gods.

Now, as far as idol worship in Hindusim is concerned, it is another vehicle, and to stress it here, not a path, just a vehicle. The idea is that if your attention is directed to an object and your feelings are pure, then you can meditate upon that object to attain higher states of Sadhana, without much hassle. On the other hand, if you try and meditate without a  focus, then it is difficult. And this is a fact that I can endorse from my own experience as well. But even in Hinduism, it is recommended that you leave your  fetish and go beyond it as soon as you are adept at the technique of focusing your mind. At this higher stage, you do not differentiate between yourself, other, or for that matter, any of the created universe, that becomes one with the 'One True Light'.  So, essentially, this idol worship was meant to be a form of guided meditation, as is also done in Buddhism and if I am not confused, even in Jainism(though need to check) and even in Bon religion.

If you have read till here, I would presume, that you would also read a little more to let me finish. Christianity underwent reformation to attain its present position in the West, and consequently, it became much more tolerant and survived to this day. Islam and Judaism, had no reformations. Judaism lost its sheen long back and Islam is becoming a global threat. However, the beauty of eastern religions is that they are inherently peaceful. Sikhsim, I surmise, was a reformist movement in the Indian religious traditions just like Buddhism and Jainism. The contemporary face of all these religions may seem different, the practices may also seem different, but one has to look beyond the obvious, and see the basic import,  and then you would realize that all these religions are the same. And, yes, I mean absolutely the same. Just the paths are different. You people have a beautiful spiritual tradition, unlike the west or the orient. Hope to learn more and contribute more. Thanks for reading. 

You are fundamentally wrong in your understanding about Sikhism and it's origins. Sikhism is a revival rather than reform. You need to get some historical context as well. You may perhaps not understand which would unfortunately toss your hard earned 'intellectual knowledge' out.

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I'd say yes, there are loads of overlaps with previously existing Indic systems out there, but I believe the biggest difference between Sikh society and other Indic ones is in the flatter, egalitarian social order it espouses. In addition to spiritual matters, the Gurus were also active in creating a complete society including villages, towns and even fortified armed towns (like Anandpur), which regulated themselves. 

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