Sardar Bahadur Singh Nirmala on -Khalsa Panth Di Sajna

[SAadmin]

Today at 8 pm gmt. Sardar Bahudar Singh Nirmala was on Sur Sagar Radio doing katha in english on Khalsa Panth Di Sajna.

I got a oppurtunity to listen to this katha and record it. It was simply mind blowing. I am over-whelmed - I have no words to describe how mind blowing was it... you can listen to it and find out yourself.

Gurbar AKAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAL

May Noor E Khuda give you bakshish of his grace bahudar singh. !!!!!!!!!

Must download guys::: !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Right click and save target as :

>>>> http://www.khalis.net/SikhAwareness/Audio/...0Da%20Sajna.mp3 <<<<

[Guest Javanmard]

I believe in the religion of Love, whatever direction its caravans may take, for Love is my religion and my faith - Ibn 'Arabi

[tableji]

About this katha I would like to add some clarifications in reponse to some criticism on the sukhsagar radio website:

1. The mangalacharan was indeed from Bhai Nand Lal's Ganjnama, which is a Persian work. The opening lines of many Persian works do nevertheless start in Arabic. The line I have used was:

sultan al awal wa al akhir

basar al batin wa al zahir

You probably have noticed that this verse uses the Arabic idhafa (possessive) instead of the Persian idhafa which would have been:

sultan i awal etc... basar i batin etc...

So it is Arabic indeed. Persian literature is full of worksthat start with Arabic openings. The Ganjnama follows this principle.

Everyone knows that the Ganjnama is in Persian but its opening lines are in Arabic as just shown above.

Learn Arabic and Persian before you accuse someone of making mistakes.

2. Regarding my pronounciation, I can only say that I did my best but my concentration was highly affected by my headache. My apologies, will try to do better next time.

3. I have never been, am not and never will be a Shia Muslim. I am an amritdhari Singh who just appreciates truth wherever it is found. May I just remind you that Pir Buddhu Shah was a Shia and that the sword of Imam Ali (as) is conserved in Keshgarh Sahib.Think twice before writing non-sense!

with love

Bahadur Singh

btw. slander is most welcome, it increases my kamai 8)

you shudnt have said that, now no1 will slander you lol

[artistformalyknownasodhi]

people may not write it but they'l still think it, thats wats rong with the world, but jus to say i dnt hate shaka at all, but i do say ifear how fast he can eat a bar of snikers.

blazing speed.

[Guest]

I find goat analogy being sheep mentality very interesting...!!!!!

[Guest Javanmard]

I believe in the religion of Love, whatever direction its caravans may take, for Love is my religion and my faith - Ibn 'Arabi

[Singh47]

It was good speech with creative vocabulary. Loads of Shia Islam being propagated though...

[artistformalyknownasodhi]

quit hating

[Bruce Lung]

Bahadur this is not slander but can you tell me categorically that you have never ever at any time even for a scintilla of a second been a Shia Muslim?

[Black Goddess]

why does it matter to you if he was one for a 'second' or not? Listen to the talk and derive some good from it, instead of wasting time on such petty issues which are no business of any of us, except Bahadur.

[Guest Javanmard]

I believe in the religion of Love, whatever direction its caravans may take, for Love is my religion and my faith - Ibn 'Arabi

[Singh47]

Sikhi and Shi'a Islam as well as other religions are just manifestations of the same eternal and universal religion, dharma or din illahi. The difference is in the practises.

But din illahi was a religion started by the Mughal emperor Akbar. I dont think that Sikhism or even Shia Islam has any link with Din Illahi.

Anyway, you mentioned in your speech about chivelry in Shia'ism, and even said that Sikhism is also a continuation of this shia chivelrous tradition. But the UK Nihangs support of view that Sikhs are a continuation of the Kshatriya tradition of India.

I am in no way different than the thousands of Sikhs who in India attend SHi'a majlises on important days like the martyrdom of Imam Ali, Fatima and Hussain (as) because hey themselves feel that there are similarities between both our traditions.

You shouldn't confuse tourists going site seeing with devotion and reverence.

[Guest Javanmard]

I believe in the religion of Love, whatever direction its caravans may take, for Love is my religion and my faith - Ibn 'Arabi

[challenge_everything]

not all UK Nihangs believe this khatri tradition singh 47

just like not all uk taksalis are in agreement over the shaheedi or chardi kala os sant jarnail singh ji khalsa bhinderawale

[Niranjana]

I would have loved to expand more on the goat thing. This slavish mentality is very much present in Sikh families who go nuts as soon, as their kids decide to follow maryada i.e. 12" shastar, dumalla, mahaprashad etc...

You actually have 60 year old Singhs saying that weapons are not necessary anymore and that Guru Nanak was superior to Guru Gobind Singh. what they like is: nice Afrkian dastar, a miniature kirpan under your trousers, of course vegetarianism and saying "thank you sir" when a bunge of street punks attack them!!! Such a shame things have come to this level...

Shaka Nyorai,

Gur Fateh Parvaan Hove!

I have listened to your Katha and leaving the silly criticisms aside (as such those found on the site referenced above), overall found the piece informative and particularly enjoyed your discussion of the Treh-Mudra / Punj Kakkars and the themes of the Punj Pyare and their symbolic manifestations and representations –most excellent.

I do have a few questions however, regarding certain points of your Katha and your statement above:

1. Throughout the discourse you make references to “ancient texts†and/or “original texts†when speaking of key Sikh events without actually stating these sources (compared to your other quotations from the Rig Veda and various Islamic sources). I appreciate that your ad lib style of discourse, which makes it all the more personal for the listener, however now that you have the opportunity to expand, please could you reference the “traditional†or “original†texts you refer to when speaking of the Goats episode.

2. With respect to your comment above, please could you clearly reference the basis of what you termed “Maryada†(i.e. 12†shastar, Dumalla and Mahaprashad), which “traditional†or “ancient†texts do these requirements come as MANDATORY for the Khalsa?

3. What is an “African†dastaar? I am familiar with the “Kenyan†adaptation of the style that evolved from the Army in India (i.e. the customary ‘Peak’ or ‘Chunj’) however there is no such thing as an African Dastaar, unless you are referring to the headgear of rural Tribesmen? Perhaps you are referring to the style adopted at large by Sikhs during the Army times in India (for a visual example, please see Warrior Saints by Amandeep Singh Madra and Paramjit Singh Grewal, in which many pictures illustrate this trend and style from the late 18th century through to the 20th century and beyond). Please could you clarify your statement?

4. In any event, your tying together of African Dastaar with minature Kirpan, vegetarianism and “thank you sir†when being attacked doesn’t make sense –minature Kirpans are in fact the all mark of Nanaksar Sampradha and a separate discussion well worth having (i.e. “if one can’t wear a full kirpan, wear a small one around their neckâ€, presumably would imply if one can’t wear a full kachera, one should wear a small one around their neck as well? As I said, perhaps a topic for a separate discussion.) Nanaksar are however as we all know and as you have stated yourself the “upsampradha†of the Nirmalas –themselves the initiators of small kirpans, string-sized karas and vegetarianism. Would you not agree?

Moreover, it seems to be a severe irony that the main detractors against the concept “Mahaprashad†are usually not those with “African†dastaars but infact those adorned with Dumallas themselves (in fact it would not be a surprise the majority of the criticism you have received to your Katha and previous presentations has also come from those, who according to your definition of Maryada are wearing a Dumallas and huge Shastars?), again would you not agree?

Thanks,

Niranjana.

[Guest Javanmard]

I believe in the religion of Love, whatever direction its caravans may take, for Love is my religion and my faith - Ibn 'Arabi

[mloco]

by african dastaar do you mean the way it is tied or the fact that it can be worn as a hat coz its starched.

i dont see that design or technique used to tie it is significant as implied by niranjana.

[Guest Javanmard]

I believe in the religion of Love, whatever direction its caravans may take, for Love is my religion and my faith - Ibn 'Arabi

[drawrof]

Waheguru ji ka khalsa, Waheguru ji ki fateh!

The information and symbolism and relation back to meta history echoed sardar kapoor singh's parasprasna!!!!

Excellent scholarly work, what we need now are more bahadurs cropping up and intellectually proving that sikhi, in itself, transcends ALL religious boundaries!!!

btw, I think I am partial because for brief second in my life I found inspiration from GI.JOE the great american hero!

[Niranjana]

Merey Veer Bahadur Singh,

Thank you for your response. If you will, I would like to explore the topic of the historical granths you reference and also Nihang Maryada (which you referenced in your discourse as the upholder of the Khalsa tradition as per the commands of Guru Gobind Singh).

We’ll leave aside the style of dastaar, as that is a side issue and one that best picked up under another thread if at all, that said, I think you’ll find from the actual history of Singhs from Kenya (and East Africa in general) that many of the traditions you regard as Puratan, such as Jatka of any meat to be consumed, Sampat Paaths, hunting (and forms of self-defense, given the treat of wild animals and rural tribesmen) etc were practiced by Singhs with the stereotypical Chunj turbans and their Singhnia, contrast this with the those who whilst speaking of Jatka traditions are quite content with buying their fat-loaded Chickens from KFC (which in it self is good reflection of fitting “into a simplistic interpretation of modernityâ€).

So on the topic of the Granths:

Texts such as Sri Guru Sobha and Banasivalanama predate all of these three Granths that you reference (Suraj Prakash Granth, Panth Prakash and Prachin Panth Prakash) and do not make any mention of the goat episode, similarly neither do they speak of the Devi episode in the manner presented within these three texts. We are all familiar that Suraj Prakash Granth in particular makes much use of mythological lore, a topic you appositely touched on during your discourse, perhaps you could share your thoughts on the discrepancy between these texts (i.e. are they, as many modern scholars suggest, simply additions arising from the imagination of the author or the much famed ‘work of devious brahmins’?) and also the Devi episode in relation to the central theme of Khalsa Sajna (essentially, are these matters to be interpreted more symbolically, as you appear to have done during the recording?)

Finally, I would like to mention, I loved the closing quotation, very apt and well chosen! So again, great presentation and solid kirtan by our Veers in the Jatha.

Best regards,

Niranjana.

[Amrit1972]

I have downloaded the lecture by Pandit Bahadur Singh Ji Nirmala, because I wanted to hear his voice too. Though, I have listened his voice, but could not hear all the file, because of 7 hours long cut in electicity supply and strong hot winds (Pbi: - 'Loo').

Your voice and style of speaking is great, brother. Arabic accent is great, indeed.

I hope the power supply will be okay in next few days and I will listen the lecture by Pandit Bahadur Singh Ji.

[sexy_singh]

could someone post a panjabi translation .. im having trouble understanding whats been said

[bobbyboy]

Thanks to N30 for hosting the katha. Singh47 said there was a lot about Shias there and I came across this website about Shias

Here is what believe to be unclean or impure

http://www.al-shia.com/html/eng/books/fiqh...ic-laws/18.html

Kafir

107. An infidel i.e. a person who does not believe in Allah and His Oneness, is najis. Similarly, Ghulat who believe in any of the holy twelve Imams as God, or that they are incarnations of God, and Khawarij and Nawasib who express enmity towards th e holy Imams, are also najis. And similar is the case of those who deny Prophethood, or any of the necessary laws of Islam, like, namaz and fasting, which are believed by the Muslims as a part of Islam, and which they also know as such.

As regards the people of the Book (i.e. the Jews and the Christians) who do not accept the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad bin Abdullah (Peace be upon him and his progeny), they are commonly considered najis, but it is not improbable that they are Pak. Ho wever, it is better to avoid them.

108. The entire body of a Kafir, including his hair and nails, and all liquid substances of his body, are najis.

109. If the parents, paternal grandmother and paternal grandfather of a minor child are all kafir, that child is najis, except when he is intelligent enough, and professes Islam. When, even one person from his parents or grandparents is a Muslim, the child is Pak (The details will be explained in rule 217).

110. A person about whom it is not known whether he is a Muslim or not, and if no signs exist to establish him as a Muslim, he will be considered Pak. But he will not have the privileges of a Muslim, like, he cannot marry a Muslim woman, nor can he be buried in a Muslim cemetery.

111. Any person who abuses any of the twelve holy Imams on account of enmity, is najis.

Seems like all of us here are najis or impure.

[Guest Javanmard]

I believe in the religion of Love, whatever direction its caravans may take, for Love is my religion and my faith - Ibn 'Arabi

[Singh47]

Lalleshwari wrote:

2. Sikh tradition of chivalry is te meeting of the classical Indian kashatriya tradition and Persian-SHi'a chivalry.

But isn’t the Khalsa niyaraa? If Khalsa’s traditions are just borrowed from older traditions, then how is it Nyaraa?

I have seen similar arguments put forth by some western scholors who have stated that Sikhism was a fusion between Hinduism and Islam.

3. Beating ones chest, crying and reciting poetry isn't just site seeing! The Maharaja of Patiala used to lead Ashura processions in the past and even today someone like Mohinder Singh Bedi writes whole collections of poems in honour of Imam Hussain (as).

I never knew that in the UK some Sikhs do this. In India, I have not come across Sikhs joining in on the ‘Siapaa’ by beating their chests and crying in public for Hussain or any other religious figure. Doing public Siapaa and vaN is not endorsed by Sikhi. In Sikh tradition we honour and remember our dead by doing Gurbani Kirtan and Paath in their memory not public Siapaa.