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I've never considered kookay to be sikhs in the first place, so I guess calling them modern day ram raiay wouldn;t be accurate. But either way, Sikhs in UK need to stop giving these guys keertan time in gurdwarey. Listen to their distortion of bani in these files.

http://www.yousendit.com/download/bFFQRFFkbThiV3g1VEE9PQ

http://www.yousendit.com/download/bFFQc0x6MGNrWTk1VEE9PQ

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Yeah dem Kookays man.. dem r bad!! dey believe in DEHDHARI Guru yo! We don't believe nuffin like dat! I only bow to the 65% cyborg Panth Guru that's made up of 50 - 100 Chardikala Tyaar Bar Tyaar Gursikhs and all of dem don't eat meat, well maybe some of dem do but I will ova look dat... but none of dem dis any Bani of the Xth Guru yo!.. ok maybe not all of dem believe all of it.. but I will ova look dat too.. but I tell you none o'dem dis any bibiyaan... ok some are old and don't let 'em do seva and ish but that's aite.. i'll ova-look dat too coz i got nuff respect aite?

yeah dem kookays r bad yo.. i'll prove to y'all.. all u kookay lovas will be ashamed once i show you this pure factual truth yo!... aite?.. lemme get it.. aite.. i got it.. De book is caulled "Rizin' Sunshine".. in Pun'abi it's "Sooraz Prakash" aite?.. Dis be massive old skool puratan tyar bar tyaar book yo!... and check this out!... :x :x :twisted: :evil: .. dayum!!! wo' de!... hell no!... Dem bad kookays travel in time and BRAIN-WASHED Big S (dat be Kavi Santokh Singh aite) into writing rubbish yo! Dem kookays made Big S say Guru Gobind Singh changed 'Neel Baster Lay Kapray Pehre' to 'Neel Baster Lay Kapray Phahre' yo!!.. DANG IT!!! DEY MADE BIG $ SAY IT WAS GURU GOBIND SINGH'S HUKAM YO!!! THAT'S LYING INIT?? Ma frenz and ma frenz' frenz and ma frenz' uncle told me dey r liars yo! I HATE DEM BAD KOOKAYS! :evil: :evil: :evil:

- F4T3H $1NgH... aite?

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the issue as I see isnt whether or not non-amritdhari's, or anyone for that matter should be allowed to do keertan in gurdwaray, but instead whether or not people that distort bani from Guru Granth Sahib Jee should be allowed to do keertan in the hazoori of Guru Granth Sahib Jee. Last I checked, it is written in Guru Granth Sahib Jee "Neel Bastar lae kaprae pehirae" and not "neel bastar lae kaprae pharey"

kookay can say watever they want about what kavi bhai santokh singh wrote, but the bottom line is that if Guru Gobind Singh Jee wanted to change pehirae to pharey, Guru Sahib would have done so in the Damdami Saroop...there are many changes between the kartarpuri bir and the damdami saroop, and if this was meant to be a change, it would have been put into the damdami saroop as such.

To tell you the truth, this isn't even a debate, it's common sense. If I started going on stage tomorrow and saying "Ik Oankaar saach naam kartaa pursh", I would deserve to get kicked off stage for altering dhur kee bani. It makes no sense how UK Sikhs allow this type of stuff to go down in gurdwarae.

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word up yo! us gurseekz geezas neva give up aiite?... aite hear me now 'ear me now.. last time was ma bad.. i ova look takin into considarasion de space-time-continuoum feory dat dem bad kookayz uzed to travol in time to mess with Big $.. but i neva give up yo!.. check dis... i got me a newer book now yo!.. itz caulled 'De Sight of De Sicquez history'.. dat be 'Sikh Itihas De Partakh Darshan' yo!.. dis again be work of heavy-metal tyar bar tyaar bhai Randheer Singh, research scholar - SGPC yo!!.. check dis... he sez Guru Gobind Singh won a battle in 1763 Bikarmi.. and yeh.. Big R quoted none oda dan Big G.. Gianni Gian Singh's (Give it up!) Twareekh Khalsa yo!!.. and den.. here's the best part yo!!.. check it.. GURU SAHIB WON THE BATTLE AND STAYED AT SABO KI TALWANDI FOR 4-5 MONTHS AND DID PARCHAR AROUND THE NEARBY AREA..... .... .... ... :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: HOLY SHI-ITE!.. i swear on ma tickle-me elmo doll's head yo!!.. dere uzed to be de part bout de damdami bir right after dis!!!.. dayum!!! .. but wait yo!!.. datz rite!.. i got me a backup diz time! :LOL: :wink: .. yeah boy! i got me De Massive in-da-house chardikalaa amritdhari book published and printed in da fitties (50s) yo!.. da fitties... dem kookayz definitely ovalooked de fitties coz dey musta thot us gursikhz won't quote nuffin from de fitties... HAHA DEM FOOLZ!.. aiite so check dis.. Sakhi Pothi.. printed November 1950... THERE IS A DAMDAMI BIR YO!!! Hurray Hurrah!! Arsenal!!! Take Dat KOOOOKAAAYYSS!!! BRRRRHUAAAHH PUTT JATTA DE!!! :LOL::LOL::LOL::):D :wink: 8)

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: Oh Shi-ite again!... wot de hell!!!!... i woz just gonna put de book away and kabam!... dis page opened up by itself yo!... what's diz... a word from de tyaar bar tyaar folks of Khalsa Samachar Amritsar (dat b massive KSA yo!.. respect!) publishers?.... Day wrote here... oh no no no no!!.. not again!!! :cry: :oops: :cry: :twisted: DAYUM YO! DAY WROTE DAY NEVA FOUND NUFFIN IN DA WRITINS OF MASSIVE SARDAR ATTAR SINGH OR SOORAZ PARKASH DAT SUPPORT DE PREPARATION OF DE DAMDAMI BIR YO!!... oh man!!... DAY ALSO WROTE DE SAKHI POTHI BEING PUBLISHED IS DIFFERENT DAN ANODER VERSION ANODER TYAR BAR TYAR GURSIKH HAS YO!.. OH NO.. NOW DAY WRITE DAT DE SAKHI OF DAMDAMI BIR HAD BEEN ADDED BY SOMEONE ELSE WHO IS NOT THE ORIGINAL AUTHOR YO!!!... GOD DAMNIT!.. if it waznt for dem meddling kookayz!... @#$@#%$#%.. I give up yo!...

P34C3

-F4t3H $1NgH... aiite?

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This is a serius topic? LOL.. you have got to be kidding.. here u have a person who outrightly rejects another persons belief - and that too is belief based on the historical source quoted - and says they can say whatever they want bla bla bla.. well I can say the same thing.. And this I'm supposed to take this seriously? who givez a penny what these kattarpanthis have to say.. I think what I wrote is pretty clear.. yo.. don't ask me.. I'm not a tyaar bar tyaar chardikala tied-beard gursikh so my words don't matter yo! I've wasted too much time already on this.. how sad.. telling Namdharis not to follow what they believe to be their Guru Gobind Singh's Hukam and yet at the same time doesn't say a word about those who lie in front of the Granth Sahib and Sadh Sangat that.... ah... forget it yo... guess i'll just never understand why some people burn with hatred on seeing others having faith in their Religion... wonder what the Granth Sahib says about them... oh yeah.. they claim not to have problem with others believing in their own religion but they have no right to believe in the same God (Gurus) as them... LOL.. yeah like i'll take that seriously when they show me the contract signed by the Guru saying that he belongs to kattarpanthis alone.. :LOL:

R3sp3cT

-F4t3H$1NgH

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I like fateh singhs previous reply.. it made more sense :P

except the ARSENAL part..

we all want to point a finger at someone and say look dehdharis or raam raiyas or whatever and hence feel we have a divine reasoning for persuing hatred towards those people.

if you have such intense love for your guru, then my dear friends.. contemplate and thank those who gave their lives in the name of your guru and your panth. This would include the Kookey ! :P

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this has nothing to do with excluding people or hating people, all it has to do with is respecting dhur kee bani. Everyone is quick to say 'have respect for other people's faith' but how about the faith of people that look at Guru Granth Sahib as Guru? Did it not hurt mahapurkhs when people tried changing around manglacharans? Did it not hurt Sikhs when Babu Teja Singh altered Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam dee bani? Does it not hurt Sikhs when people try changing aorund lagumantars? In the same way, do you not expect it to hurt sikhs when gurmeet/baljit either skip the line and move on to the next one as if it never existed, or change bani aorund AT A GURDWARA? Gurmeet and Baljit must have a lot of respect for the beliefs of others...

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sorry to burst ur bubble but many non-namdharis who belong to ur wonderful panth also believe Guru Gobind Singh changed the Tuk, this includes Jathedar Kartar Singh Kalaswalia, ex-granthi of Darbar Sahib.. but most decide to remain quiet about the issue perhaps because it conflicts with the damdami bir theory but that is pure speculation on my part..

Also when u actually try to listen and consider what people from a different faith say, u will find out that when Namdharis invite non-namdharis to do Kirtan, they allow them to do Ardas or Path the way they are taught by their Guru/parents. Why don't the non-namdharis have the strength to tolerate the same? Ofcourse there are many that do, but it seems those who have the intolerable view seem to be making the most noise... when it comes to praising God, petty differences should be kept aside and let's try to understand the differences... remember there is a BIG difference in terms of reasoning here.. ramrai was afraid of the mughals so he changed Gurbani whereas Namdharis and those who follow Kavi santokh singh's sooraj parkash believe it is the correct way to do path..

Fateh Singh

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Vaheguru ji ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji ki Fateh,

When veers like Gurpreet Singh Ji have a problem, they should either have the courage to approach those they accuse themselves, or do proper research, think out a resolution and then approach mature individuals who can assess his response and maybe help to the resolution through to fruition.

I have seen and responded to similar ill thought posts on another forum, so will will simply post my response here also, most of which is valid here also:

To reiterate, there is nothing wrong with looking after the sanctity of Gurbani, in fact it us our duty, but this can be done politely, diplomatically, intelligently and productively.

I have spoken to a close associate of Bhai Baljeet Singh Ji, they have advised the following facts which with their permission, I feel need to be shared and known to ascertain the facts and complexity of the situation, I only ask and do benti, to please not turn this into a Namdhari bashing post, that is not the issue here, Namdhari have their own version of beliefs which vary in some ways to the mainstream (mainly "Guru" Granth Sahib), but at the same time hold on to many puratan Sikh traditions, such as low cost weddings, simplicity in life and appearance, importance of education and a more puratan NITNEM, similar to Budda Daal (in my opinion, so need to discuss or argue re this), we must concentrate on the problem and solution, and not be fanatical or narrow minded, it's a big world, diversity is created by Guru, and many Namdhari have sharda, nimrata and gun, that lack in the mainstream, if there is a difference in belief today, it may not be there tomorrow, if amicable relations are kept, Satguru will do kirpa and bring the panth together one day:

1 - Namdhari's (namely Namdhari Guru Jagjit Singh Ji) believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains some mistakes (not sure of how many), one of them being the Phare and Pahire issue being discussed here.

2 - As one of myveers pointed out earlier, this is a question of santhia, and Bhai Baljeet Singh Ji are simply holding true to their schooling.

3 - Bhai Baljeet Singh Ji does not have an agenda, he has made many personal adjustments in terms of being respectful to the panthic traditions and beliefs i.e. matthaa takana, giving Fateh etc... I personally believe these are massive steps for any Namdhari to take, as they are contradictory to their beliefs, this shows Bhai Sahib has an open mind and is not fanatical, he does not look uncomfortabel either, which tells me he is genuine.

4 - His associate who is a highly educated Gursikh (non-Namdhari), is very close to Bhai Sahib, and has utmost respect for Bhai Sahib - who has never promoted /propogated his own beliefs and has always been open to happily teaching non-Namdhari students without discrimination.

5 - Bhai Sahib has performed Asa di Vaar on various occassions where non-Namdhari students have respectfully and rightfully sounded out correctly, those tuks where they know Namdhari views differ, Bhai Sahib has respected this fact and not challenged anyone.

6 - I feel Bhai Sahib has and is taken a huge step to remove boundaries, there should not be a fear that the Panth will be changed, there are to many educated (and fanatical) Sikhs for that to happen.

7 - I think we should welcome any person who is making a concious effort to work with and help the panth, and then in an EDUCATED and loving manner, educate them. It is this loving education of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's true sons, that has already allowed Bhai Sahib to bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and balaa Guru ji's Fateh.

8 - People who know Bhai Sahib talk highly of their persona, generosity and humility, which is a lot more than can be said for many Panthic raagi's/kirtanis performing and committing misdeeds around the world, without any questioning.

9 - MOST IMPORTANTLY, nothing is more sacred than Maharaj and their sanctity, I only wished to establish the facts before people started going off on unconsidered tangents. I do not think the Ram Rai issue is comparabel here, as Ram Rai knew exatcly what he was doing and what he was doing was worng, his Guru and father was Satguru. Bhai Sahib is simply doing what is the truth beknown to them, as probably taught by their Namdhari Guru, that is their education, whatever any person in this world is exposed to, taught or learns they hold true, so we cannot use this comparison.

10 - My veer is looking to have discussions with Bhai Sahib next week, this is happening on an on-going basis, many things have changed and with Vaheguru's kirpa will continue to change. In the mean time, it is the responsibilty of educated sangat, and more so the business minded Guru Ghar staff, to ask Bhai Sahib politely to adhere to and if possible explain what the panthic santhia is.

We should leave our arms open for all, when the day comes when those in dilema, need to find a new truth, we should ensure that relations are such that they will come to their true home first.

Vaheguru

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Dear Mr. Shaheediyan,

I appreciate your responses but as you may have expected I have an issue with this statement you made: 1 - Namdhari's (namely Namdhari Guru Jagjit Singh Ji) believe that Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains some mistakes (not sure of how many), one of them being the Phare and Pahire issue being discussed here.

I don't know where you got this from or which 'close associate' of which Namdhari told you this but Neel Bastar Leh Kapre Pehray or Phahray is most definitely NOT and is NEVER referred to as a mistake. Pehre (worn) was originally written by Guru Nanak Dev Ji and Phahre (torn) was uttered 101 times by Guru Gobind Singh while burning the blue clothes that the singhs used to disguise themselves as Muslims (see Suraj Parkash) for which when asked by Kaulji what price he would pay for the reversal of the Tuk, Guruji replied that he had already given his family as sacrifice for this change. This was the common knowledge at the time and is reflected in Suraj Parkash Granth. Why or for what reason it is lost in the non-Namdhari community I can only speculate.

Also to clarify further, and my apologies to those who wish to use the statement by Shaheediyan as another Namdhari-bashing point, the 'mistakes' that are in the Guru Granths (Both Adi and Dasam) are not what non-Namdharis are accustomed to, e.g. entire Bani (Raagmala, Bhagat Bani, 90% of Dasam Granth Sahib) is wrong etc, but rather the 'sticking' of the letters where they are not supposed to and vice versa or the missing of vowels which occurs in the printing process and leads to misinterpretations and mispronunciations. Also let's remember (or learn for those who are reading this for the first time in their lives) that even though the Granth Sahibs are the highest of Scriptures in this Yug, those who made copies of the Granth Sahib in the good old days always tried to get them approved and signed/stamped by the Gurus as a sign that they are Shudh. So please understand that mistakes happen - because the printers/writers of the Granth Sahib have always been humans unfortunately - and this point should not be taken as being disrespectful of your Guru.

I agree with the other points you made but at the same time don't expect any of those from the fanatic 'I-love-to-hate' camp to pay much attention to what you or - I for that matter - have written. Ok! enough time wasting for today..

Happy Saturday!

-Fateh Singh

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This is for Gurpreet Singh Ji since I see that he sites Taksal on issues discussed

I tell you one of the most surprising things I've seen of the last few years in the UK was a Baba Sri Chand janam prakash divas at that 100% Taksali gurdwara in birmingham area (Gurdwara Baba Sang Ji).

I noticed a few of the biggy Taksali committee vale and gyanis from leicester, birmingham places like that had come too. Not only did they do an akhand path of both Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, but after the young UK Taksali kirtani jatha (sporting Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale jumpers), invited onto the stage to do katha was a) Sant Avatar Singh Bedi to talk about the bedi link, B) the main Taksali Gyani bloke (sadly I forget his name) who does a lot of katha c) the Gyani from Sri Hazoor Sahib d) an Udasi Baba BUT also a Namdhari Sant, who sat and talked about Dasam bani for about 30 minutes. Nobody looked shocked or got up! So it seems UK Taksal officiandos have no issue with the Namdharis. Or is that incorrect?

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im not from UK, so I wouldnt know.

to tell you the truth I have no 'issues' with kookay. The fact that I don't consider them Sikhs, doesn't mean i got some sort of hatred or agenda or against them. I don't consider muslims to be sikhs either, but that doesn't mean I hate muslims. My issue is what seems to me as distortion on bani.

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In my opinion.

I dont think Kookay are responsible for the distortion in bani,

I think time and history are to blame,

just like it is over time that

Bani pronounciation has become distorted,

Maryadas and sampradyas have become split and distorted,

Saroop of Maharaj has itself become distorted (from lareevar to non lareevar saroop)

Gurdwaras, institutes organisations have become distorted

Nitnem bania have become distorted

Amrit sanchar has become distorted.

The list can go on and on.

abuse of any of the above is a serious issue and even the kookey would stand up against something like that, but for someone to cause a division between a community based on distortion, well looking at the list above I dont think the Kookay are the only ones we should be concerned about :D

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click here: http://www.ik13.com/Ayans/SGPS%20Ayan%201.pdf and do a search ctrl+F and put in "nil bsqr" as the query. It should be crystal clear, no translation necessary. Page # is 56. Took me under a minute to find. It is actually a very emotional reading, the exchange between Guruji and Kaulji.

Good luck!

P.S. that website is by the Nirmalas of Rara Sahib, so beat up N30 Singh if anyone doesn't like it! :LOL: :lol: j/k

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Fair enough Gurpreet Singh ji. It wasn't a jibe, just honest confusion about how all this fits together. My own experience of Namdharis has only been that, experience of individuals all quite different. Sometimes they've come across quite cultish, other ones I've met quite beautiful. The funniest experience I've had recently was in an akhara sitting around the fire in the evening, a namdhari sevadar of a visiting mahant sat next to us with his walkman on. He started wildly swooning (no paghs falling off this time sadly) to what my prejudices told me would be beautiful raag kirtan maybe even some rare 1930s recording of dhrupad? But then he turned it up and broke into song. He was in total anand listening to the nastiest most 80s jazz hindi song! Brilliant. Obviously I beat him to within an inch of his life for his failure to meet paragraph 3.6 clause 17 of the Panthic SGPC Rehit Maryada as practiced by everyone.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

In Bangkok, Namdharis and Sikhs live in general harmony. Both sides know the highlighted differences of each others' beliefs and they respect them. Bangkokis, know that a Namdhari isn't going to get converted. Because their Satguru Jagjit Singh often visits the community.

When the longest serving Giani in Bangkok, Giani Arjan Singh passed away, this Namdhari Guru came to Bangkok Sikh Gurdwara, bowed before the Guru Granth Sahib and sat in the Sangat with his followers to pay his respects for the late Giani.

I particularly like Namdhari Kirtan not because of the 'show-off' tabla player but because of the sarangi and taar shenai that pulls the heart.

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  • 3 weeks later...

This is for Gurpreet Singh Ji since I see that he sites Taksal on issues discussed

I tell you one of the most surprising things I've seen of the last few years in the UK was a Baba Sri Chand janam prakash divas at that 100% Taksali gurdwara in birmingham area (Gurdwara Baba Sang Ji).

I noticed a few of the biggy Taksali committee vale and gyanis from leicester, birmingham places like that had come too. Not only did they do an akhand path of both Sri Guru Granth Sahib and Sri Dasam Granth Sahib, but after the young UK Taksali kirtani jatha (sporting Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale jumpers), invited onto the stage to do katha was a) Sant Avatar Singh Bedi to talk about the bedi link, B) the main Taksali Gyani bloke (sadly I forget his name) who does a lot of katha c) the Gyani from Sri Hazoor Sahib d) an Udasi Baba BUT also a Namdhari Sant, who sat and talked about Dasam bani for about 30 minutes. Nobody looked shocked or got up! So it seems UK Taksal officiandos have no issue with the Namdharis. Or is that incorrect?

if youlisten to the speeches of Sant jarnail Singh Bhindranwale during morcha you will hear about on his travels when he went to a village where there were lots of namdharis. They initially resented his presence but after the taksal did a diwan there Sant Jarnail Singh invited the Namdharis to Mehta to do kirtan and said we will honour you with siropa. Dont know whether it ever happened , but the taksal are not anti-namdhari as a whole.

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yea i agree in bangkok there is harmony with all of the sikhs, even neeldaris and namtaris sit together at the Singh Sahba Gurdwara in bangkok, i was suprised at the unity between sikhs there, its makes me sad to think in the uk we cant have the same,

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There r no khalistani fanatics with any following or prominence in Thailand from what I've heard. Can someone confirm this? From what I've seen and heard they are all influenced by the 'pacifist' Budhist culture that teaches all true religions preach good karma.... the pacifists! They just want to live in peace don't they?!

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