A time for Hindustanis to speak up?

[chatanga]

I cannot see one difference between the killings of thousands of innocent Sikhs and the killings of innocent people killed on 7/7 in london.

Can the Hindustanis on this forum explain to me how this is different from the actions of al-qaeda in the UK?

If we recognise that the glorification of the killing of random innocent Sikhs is not only totally against anything remotely related to any belief system...but actually pretty sick, can you identify ONE voice in the Hindustani community in the diaspora who actively criticises such actions?

Even if people cop out and take recourse to 'there all terrorists', surely we can agree that some non-sikh youth do not see it that way?

THE REAL PREACHERS OF TRUTH AND JUSTICE

indra-asur . laid the seed of conflict for political reaasons. location - 84 lakh jooni

rajiv-asur furthered his mothers programme. location 84 lakh jooni

beanta-asur killed sikhs to please the rakhsas. location 84 lakh jooni.

kps gill killed sikhs to please rakhsas. location india somehere.

ajit sandhu. pandey, swarna ghotna, izhar alam, ss ray, tytler, sajjan, as brar, crp, bsf, ribeiro, saini, suresh arora, sanjiv gupta...the list is endless.

I recall hearing another hindustani youth on a similiar forum back after 9/11 stating how hindustanis could learn something from twin towers, how effective it was without for a second commenting on the ethics of it. Whose responsibility is it to stop this increasing trend of glamourising the murder of innocent people?

[tSingh]

I think you missed the point Bhai Sahib!

As an advocate of Khalistan, (I presume) you ACTIVELY support the EFFORTS of the historical kharkoo to establish a politically-geographically independent nation of Khalistan. The political organisations in the UK ALSO actively stand by the actions of the kharkoos back when. Through all there EFFORT and ACTIONS in trying to get the youth involved in this, they have never actually critiqued the actions of kharkoo but always deflected any moral responsibility by turning to this 'it was indian government agents dressed as singhs or corrupt media'...yet Baba Jarnail Singh Bhaindranwale I'm sure would have at least publicly criticised such actions.

I am not a Hindustani since I live in the UK. I am not involved with ANY POLITICAL organisation. That means I do not ACTIVELY support the EFFORTS of anyone in this. I am SOLELY concerned with the DISTORTION of Sikhi and the human rights of any innocent person whose life is taken.

While you said on this forum you don't support the actions that lead to the deaths of innocent people in the struggle for Khalistan, nobody in the political community you belong to has PUBLICLY stated and accepted the very dubious actions of some Kharkoo whose faces I see in local Gurdwaras in the UK. In fact the silence of that political community on such issues implies that such actions are and were MORALLY JUSTIFIED. Putting pictures of the faces of certain individals on the walls of gurdwara implies they were the actions of a true shaheed to be imitated. But if you take someone like Manochahal, towards the end he was bumping off any other kharkoo threat to his own tarn taran fiefdom.

Returning to the original post on sikhsangat, two weeks on and only one of the 7 replies even RECOGNISES the morally inexcusable element to the post. the others merely criticised the use of the word Brahmgyani!!!

I'm not talking about tit for tat, I'm talking about the ethical basis of Sikhi being distorted for political ends. Not about 'they did it too'..that is not in question since we know what they did. I'm talking about a man who claims to have bombed and killed innocent bystanders being called a 'Sant' by some Sikh youth as an extreme form of a larger mindset which is a point blank acceptance that some kharkoo, who were not GOI agents, did some pretty sick stuff in the name of the Sikh faith.

The failure to highlight and criticise that is a failure of the Khalistani community and to my mind a fundamental insult to the Gurus and their teachings, in whose name it is justified. This extends beyond any communal identity to the very root of Sikhi as a model trying to get us to a state of jivanmukt.

AND just as I'd said in the original post...give it enough time and Khalistanis always defend themselves by retorting to 'they did it first' or as in this post 'they haven't apologised so why should we?'. To always deflect criticism is as good as saying it didn't happen. I expect nothing from some facist RSS muppet, but I do expect more from people who supposedly believe in mahapurush and sants as according to gurbani.

[Xylitol]

tsingh, you are right.

[guv]

Great post tSingh

[shaheediyan]

Yes, veer T Singh Ji, that is a sad truth.

Putting the issue of "who were the actual perpetraters" aside for a moment, we should collectively condemn acts of violence upon innocent parties, who ever is responsible.

But that sad truth is, the tortures, rapes and murders that many have faced, and that the panth has been made aware of, are a painful burden to bear, especially for the many families who's relations were victims.

Attachment, injustice and cruelty to one's family/community does blind and desenstisize the average person to the issue of retaliation against innocents of the "opposing" faction.

This is no way a justification, but the issue is not as clear cut as people would like it to be.

In a perfect world, everyone would be wise, and understand that 2 wrongs don't make right, but the truth is that no community today is wise.

[chatanga]

I think you missed the point Bhai Sahib!

As long back as the annual convention of the ISYF in 2000, a mata was passed at Sedgely street gurdwara in the UK stating that some actions of the militant groups had undesirable consequences which involved killing of innocent people, and other atrcoties. And this is not something i heard, but witnessed. All the Khalistanis from over the uk europe and world were there.

Many a time Khalistanis have individually like myself and on a larger platform said that some actions of the militants led the downfall of the Khalstan movement.

As for the dubious people who's faces are in the gurdwaras that is for you to question those who put them up, but how many people died and how many peoples backgroudn are you actualy going to be able to ascertain to what activities they were involved in ?

And returning to my origianl post i stated that the actions of the sikh militants were a RE-action. a reaction to the killings of sikhs at mehta and amritsar and delhi and the burning of guru saroops at chando kalan, and other places in panjab and india. Read some of the stories of the militants and how they had NO desire to be drawn into a vicious conflict with an indestinguisable powerful foe, but felt they were compelled to, just to survive.

if the rakhsas were the ones to throw the first punch, why should we be the first to apologise? If i hit you and then you hit me, and then i said You must apologise for hitting me, would you apologise? i doubt it.

[guv]

if the rakhsas were the ones to throw the first punch, why should we be the first to apologise? If i hit you and then you hit me, and then i said You must apologise for hitting me, would you apologise? i doubt it.

Because if you don't, you're no better than them.

It's not a matter of apologising because "they" want you to... you apologise because it's the right thing to do.

[chatanga]

So the imperial forces and the hill chief attacked Guru Ji at anandpur, Guru Ji and the sikhs fought back, kiling many enemy soldados. They were repaid in the same coin. Then by your reckoning guv, Guru Ji didnt send a letter of victory , but a letter of apology , becasue otherwise Guru Ji would have been the same as Aurangzeb?

Is this your thinking guv?

[guv]

AND just as I'd said in the original post...give it enough time and Khalistanis always defend themselves by retorting to 'they did it first' or as in this post 'they haven't apologised so why should we?'. To always deflect criticism is as good as saying it didn't happen. I expect nothing from some facist RSS muppet, but I do expect more from people who supposedly believe in mahapurush and sants as according to gurbani.

And returning to my origianl post i stated that the actions of the sikh militants were a RE-action. a reaction to the killings of sikhs at mehta and amritsar and delhi and the burning of guru saroops at chando kalan, and other places in panjab and india. Read some of the stories of the militants and how they had NO desire to be drawn into a vicious conflict with an indestinguisable powerful foe, but felt they were compelled to, just to survive.

if the rakhsas were the ones to throw the first punch, why should we be the first to apologise? If i hit you and then you hit me, and then i said You must apologise for hitting me, would you apologise? i doubt it.

As long back as the annual convention of the ISYF in 2000, a mata was passed at Sedgely street gurdwara in the UK stating that some actions of the militant groups had undesirable consequences which involved killing of innocent people, and other atrcoties. And this is not something i heard, but witnessed. All the Khalistanis from over the uk europe and world were there.

Many a time Khalistanis have individually like myself and on a larger platform said that some actions of the militants led the downfall of the Khalstan movement.

Sounds like something the US military say after they've bombed someones wedding in Iraq!

But it's good that at least they're starting to recognise the bad points as well as the good of the conflict.

[guv]

So the imperial forces and the hill chief attacked Guru Ji at anandpur, Guru Ji and the sikhs fought back, kiling many enemy soldados. They were repaid in the same coin. Then by your reckoning guv, Guru Ji didnt send a letter of victory , but a letter of apology , becasue otherwise Guru Ji would have been the same as Aurangzeb?

Is this your thinking guv?

LOL! You've got a knack for the dramatic!

No... that's not my thinking. Read what I've said again... & this time don't jump to conclusions!

[tSingh]

No Chatanga, the Guru is said to have helped Bahadur Shah a MATTER of years after his sons were killed by the Moghuls. I think that constitutes a MAJOR element of the Guru's example that is ignored today...that he didn't tarnish a whole community with the same brush and that at some point in life there must come a process of looking to the future rather than getting lost in anger about the past...yet he sought justice against the INDIVIDUALS who caused it like Wazir Khan. That looking to the furture does not mean an end to pushing for justice...but that young Sikhs are not sold the idea that Sikhs are still being actively murdered in Punjab BECAUSE they are Sikh.

Any Singh who gets picked up by the police and websites have a post on it. But I'll give you an example, a friend over here (young mazhbi and mona so people can understand why) was driving a car and got involved in a small accident. the police (sardarjis) arrived and beat the living shit out of him. kept him for a few days refusing to tell the family where he was, refused to release him, continued with the beatings, and to this day have his driving license even though he had nothing to do with it. Does this sound familiar? His name didn't pop up on pathic.org.

A couple of days ago I was getting on a bus, and the bus was holding up the traffic, a police man ran up doing the angry bang the bus with his stick routine, a mazbhi bloke whose wife and small kid were already on the bus was getting on, the policeman after hitting the bus started violently shaking the man calling a bhenchod etc in front of his wife and kid...for what? He wouldn't have done it to a jat or anyone else...he had dark skin. And I was thinking what his kid would be taking from this. These are fairly common incidents in Punjab aren't they? This is how india is. People pick on other people, the police are notoriously vicious...in every state. If you look posh they don't touch you. If you look poor, they go for you. Those images of adi-dharmi women being beaten with lathis by a group of policemen recently on TV, etc, etc.

Are these direct attacks on Sikhi, or the way police work in Punjab and other parts of India? Is this an issue of Sikhi under attack, or law and order in India being pretty dubious? Does this mean as many young Sikhs on forums imply, that punjabi Sikhs are 'asleep' to this, or sell outs? So surely the issue should be 'lets push for human rights and justice for the death of all innocents, of any community in India?'. You raise that slogan and I'll stand right behind you. You start shouting about how 'All Hindus are facist' and have tried to destroy sikhi since its inception, 'we want a Khalistan' (or rather a jat-istan) then I walk away. I believe in secularism as a political model..otherwise you end up with Lal Masjid situations and attacks on hairdressers and manicurists and beauticians and jeans-sellers and imported ice-cream walas or whatever!

I did not know that Chatanaga about the ISYF doing that...I'm sure the decision to label them a terrorist organisation has made them actively disassociate themselves from that side of things. If what you say is true then I am impressed...and you are right on that particular point. If you have a reference for that please pass it on, since it needs to be posted on all these forums for young kids to know that someone is talking a more responsible line.

[Xylitol]

just wanted to add, that the media back in the day was pressed by goi to tarnish the image of the khalistan movement. This was written in a times of india article. The editor also stated that most newspapers went along with it.

[chatanga]

You start shouting about how 'All Hindus are facist' ...

i have never stated that . ever. and what you are talking about the ravan sena beating on poor people, why are they encouraged to do it and then to get away wiv it? cos of the ravan govt. if the ravan govt said that any ravan sipahi who beats on people for nothing would go to jail thn it would stop. but this issue is not about caste.

this is an issue where a lot of people have been looking to the pro-khalistanis to apologise for the misdeeds carried out on the name of Khalistan, and totally ignoring the the actions of the ravan govt who carried out its duty in the name of bhoot-mata.

two wrongs dont amke a right, but the khalistan movement only started after 1984. The ravan govt started killing sikhs way back in 1966, and even labelled sikhs as criminals in1947.so did anyone say after all that tiem " its time for the hindusatanis to speak up? If not why not?

why do you hold us to everything that you are not prepared to hold the ravan raj bhoot mata to? as Sant Jarnail Singh said " why do we have to give a glass of blood to recieve a drop of water?" Its the same thing here .

india is the mother that kills its children. india is the mother that eats its children.

[tSingh]

Thats fine, thats your rhetoric. I've heard it maybe 10000000 times...and again your deflecting, thats fine too.

But Chatanga Ji please read the post more carefully. Your missing the central point of what I'm saying. I'm not accusing YOU specifically. I'm saying the LACK of criticism of some people's comments and actions DETRACTS from the credabiltiy of the Khalistani movement generally. I've never said you think all hindus are facists, but we've seen placards that say that at khalistani events.

I'll tell you why I don't post on sikhawareness about the Indian government, because the whole point of this site is to have a few second breather from the tirade of bringing everything back to the 80s and 90s. When it comes to the crunch, according to most of the people on this forum Sikhi is about striving for brahmgyan. Thats what a lot of posts are about on here. This is what makes it different from the myriad sites for young kids. There has never been an agenda to put either pro or anti khalistani stuff on here since most people are not here for that info.

why do you hold us to everything that you are not prepared to hold the ravan raj bhoot mata to?

I'll explain it clearly for you, please read this carefully;

The Government is a political constitution that is ultimately accountable to its political obligations. Politics is inherently dirty and post-emergency Congress even more so. Their acts are measured in terms of efficacy on whatever temporal principles they maintain (whether it be a 'united india' or 'saffronisation' or 'socialist state' or whatever)....

Sikhi however is NOT this. It is a model of metaphysics that has poltical and moral IMPLICATIONS, not MOTIVATIONS. That means that the words of the Gurus are oriented toward mystical experience, their implications apply to society also (Khalsa, Kshatriya Maryada, etc). A Sikh is meant to be a model of ethical and saintly behaviour. A Sikh stands to LOOSE MORE from highly unethical actions compared to a mere politician.

That means I expect LITTLE from any given government other than various social outcomes and human rights. I expect a HUGE AMOUNT from people who sign up to and choose to represent the teachings of the Gurus. When their actions begin to distort or undermine the Guru's teachings or when they REDUCE these teachings of the Gurus to ethno-politcal goals, then they are worthy of criticism. that is my primary concern...the Guru and the Guru's teachings.

That does not mean I am not actively concerned about human rights abuses (and I warmly 100% support the efforts of individuals who strive for justice to this day, they should be celebrated too). What it does mean is that on a forum when I look at the sangat and I see what I've seen, then I'm duty bound to criticise those elements for the sake of the sanctity of Sikhi and the representation of the Gurus.

A fairly inept example, two holy people go off to get justice against a rapist and his supporters. In the process one of them is so caught up in hatred and anger that he gets revenge by raping one of their enemies. How is that person any different to the first? Well in my mind he's even worse and more dangerous because he hides his crime behind 'they did it first' and yet maintains the notion that he represents truth and is 'holy'. A child shouts 'they did it first' or 'they are worse' to defend their own bad actions, a gursikh who has imbibed budhi and vivek does not. If you stand for truth, you castigate the first rapist, but even more urgently get rid of the tainted one who is actively detracting from the notion of holiness.

I really hope that is clear because we're going round in circles here.

[chatanga]

Ok i get your point again, and yes it duz seem like we are going round in circles sometimes. i just dont see why anyone should start a topic and critiise khalistanis first, and make us look like the unreasonable side. Again the word first comes up. But that dont make it wrong that we/I say first.

its insinuated that things can only move drawrof if the khalistanis apoligise for atrocties comitted in the name of khalistan. This apology however i stress can only be a RE-action to the apology by the ravan govt .

[guv]

Hehe... round & round & round we go...

[chatanga]

papi ko marna paap mahabali he. what duz this mean?

[Guest]

it means to kill papi - his/her paap itself is more than enough to root the papi out.

[chatanga]

duz this make the killer a papi as well since he has " sunk to the same level as the killer"

[drawrof]

All the hindustani's in the place say HO-oah....Ho-oah...say YE YE....Ye YE

come on everybody lets make some noise....

Hindus-taa-knee

Hindus-taa-kneee

y'all know dis is da place 2b!

CYA

[tarkhansingh]

BALLE SONIYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

[nimarta da daan bakhso]

Ok i get your point again, and yes it duz seem like we are going round in circles sometimes. i just dont see why anyone should start a topic and critiise khalistanis first, and make us look like the unreasonable side. Again the word first comes up. But that dont make it wrong that we/I say first

You know everybody likes to point fingers at other ppl, its hard to point fingers at "urself" or "apne" ppl. And before u say anything to anybody else u should make sure u don't do it. Maybe thats why most sikhs criticize Khalstanis first. I mean whats the use of criticizing the "ravan gov" here: everybody already knows what they did and what's the use: they're not going to hear and not change. so lets change ourselves, me included.

isn't ther a tuk about not giving dosh to other ppl.

[chatanga]

The point is that sum peopel like to come on here and start throwing accusations and whatnot wivout even checking out their facts first!!

and also for all the satani mat that flows around on this site banging on about respecting other people's diversity, this duz not apply to those who would prefer sikhs to have their own country. why the hypocrisy?

[SAadmin]

chatanga, what satani mat on this site u on about? Please clarify? This site only promotes Gurmat.

[chatanga]

the eternal dharma is wot me chatting bout.