CdnSikhGirl

Paapiman you once told me that the instruction for "Gurmukhs" to see the divine light in ALL, is actually for just Brahamgyanis, because you said it's impossible for us as humans to see the divine light in everyone. Yet very contradictory to the previous, you are supporting the commandment of women to do this very thing with their husbands... So unless you think of all women as being Brahamgyanis (and it obvious you don't since you don't even see women as fully humans and see us as a 'downgrade' to males) I don't see how you can explain yourself out of this one.
You are expecting women to do something you yourself say is only possible if you are a Bahamgyani, by seeing their husband AS God. Why would our Gurus command women to do something which is impossible??
Why do you think it's so difficult for you to see God in women - but you expect women to see God in males, nay, not only see God IN males, but see males AS God???  How can you ever expect a woman to see a man (her husband) AS God, when you say that same man is not even capable of living the qualities of what is commanded of a "Gurmukh" in Gurbani (what you say is a Brahamgyani) let alone living the qualities of our actual creator... ???  
"As Gurmukh, look upon ALL with a single eye of equality, for in EACH AND EVERY heart the divine light is contained" 

If her husband can not even follow the above command issued to all Gurmukhs by seeing the divine light equally in his wife (who is most definitely a part of the ALL) then how can you support commanding her to see him AS God - which is commanding her to follow an instruction you say is only possible for a "Brahamgyani"?? (btw Gurmukh means TRUE Sikh following Gurbani and living by it, not a Brahamgyani) - but I digress...
And even if a woman does see God in her husband, it certainly does NOT mean she must obey him or that she is his servant or subordinate.
And perhaps most importantly - It does NOT mean that she is any less God than he is!!!!!  You ignore this one truth...whether or not YOU personally see it: It doesn't change the fact that in reality God is in ALL equally - as we can see in the above quoted line from Gurbani (and many others as well). So whether or not the husband sees it in his wife too, the divine light is in her EQUALLY to him regardless. They are on equal level as Divine.
A loving and TRUE Gurmukh husband would recognize God in his wife equally.  And if he doesn't, then he really is not living the qualities of a Gurmukh, let alone God! 
A True Gurmukh husband would look upon his wife as God as well. 
 

Note: Admin Ji are we allowed to do this??

WJKK WJKF

Being a dastaar tying Singhni... I am always interested in the different styles and even all the different types of dumalla etc. (I wish we had turban competition etc here as I think in its own way it's an art and is an expression of the person who ties it as they are all different) I also wish more females tied them...

I usually tie gol dastaar since it's fairly easy but if you can believe it, this photo was my very first attempt at tying a dumalla style. I had extra white material which was longer, and I use dumalla width anyway so I thought I'd give it a try... Its the same photo in my profile pic, but you can see it larger here. If I have completely messed up dumalla, then pls let me know I used 8 meters here... so its not very full... but overall I think I got the style / shape correct.

I am interested to see your dastaars! (You can blank out your face if you wish).

I take it you are against Singhnis wearing turbans... That photo above you can't tell if she is Sikh or Hindu.... so much for standing out. Not only that, she appears to have a nose piercing which is a big no no after taking Amrit.  Rest of jewelry is also debatable as some sects rehet maryada even is against jewelry at all. 
Here is a historical painting showing a keski on the woman. This depiction the woman looks much more like a Sikh. Wearing bana and keski and no nose piercing and no belly showing from skimpy choli and a mountain of jewelry and makeup. Since the Gurus advocated that 'naam' is our jewelry, I find it strange that Sikh women would have been made up like painted dolls. I think this painting below is much more accurate:

I dont know about that.... I believe there is a transition period before you come back. And I also believe that its possible to interact with this world. I have two *personal* stories which seem to suggest this:

1. I already mentioned I have had numerous out of body experiences in my life, so I networked with others who also had same experiences. One of my friends did an experiment while 'out'. He went towards his computer and waved his *hand* through the tower. He really didn't expect anything to happen but when he was back in physical and went to turn on the computer, he had corrupted the hard drive. It was as if a large chunk had been erased. This suggests a definite electromagnetic connection between the physical and nonphysical realities. It also makes sense, since many of the sounds encountered during separation and return from out of body experiences are described to be like static, or rushing, electrical like sounds. It means that recently departed may be able to somehow interact with electronic devices... which leads me to #2

2. When my own Father died, the day of the funeral we were all leaving the hall where the wake was, and outside the building waiting to go to the funeral at the Church (he was Catholic). As they wheeled him around the corner in the casket, the lights and car alarm on the limousine started going haywire... and nobody was standing anywhere near it. Then when we got home, My Mother and I found a message left on the answering machine. It was pretty garbled up, but I was able to clear most of it. The machine was not a tape machine, it was digital so it could not have been a bad tape and we tried to do the *69 thing where it tells you the last number that called. The last number came up as a call we had received in that morning... long before that message was left. Another strange thing was that the bird my Mother had was chirping in the background. The only way the bird could have been on there is if someone clicked the 'memo' button and left a message right at the machine itself. But.... nobody was there as we were all at the funeral! The message itself gets clearer in the second half, and some of the things blew me away:
One thing was "Remember the LIGHT. Remember the life we had. I can hear you, don't worry if I'm alright, I'm ok. I can hear you, I'm sorry that we couldn't do more, but I'm not cold or tired. Remember. Do not doubt. Remember your faith. Remember"

Now he didnt say Catholic faith... he said faith. And a word he didnt really use before... light. Remember the light.

Now I had been alone the previous day, and I was saying out loud... I need to know you are ok because I am having doubts. I need to know you are still 'somewhere' - so it was very eerie hearing 'I can hear you, don't worry if I am alright, I m ok" as you can well imagine!

This is also how I KNOW it was not a prank that someone did. Because I said those things while I was completely alone in the house!!!

This is only a tiny bit of the over 2 min long message by the way! I clipped it so you can hear exactly this spot.
"Remember the LIGHT. Remember the life we had. I can hear you, don't worry if I'm alright, I'm ok. I can hear you, I'm sorry that we couldn't do more, but I'm not cold or tired. Remember. Do not doubt. Remember your faith. Remember"
message1.mp3

Or maybe not time travel but soul travel. Beyond this physical illusion, there is no time or space. All is ONE. There have been many stories of people soul travelling (astral projection) to other places.... including Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Oh you mean don't do like Damdami Taksal does? 

Because they pick and choose tuks to suit their agenda:

They use this one, without taking the lines immediately following, you lose the context, which tells us that the idea of physical pollution (and useless rituals to purify oneself) are false deeds, that the one who is impure is the one who 'sucks the blood' of others (using metaphor to speak of exploitation of others). So, like majority of Gurbani it uses allegory to take a physical reference and shift our thinking to our own mind, thoughts and deeds. DDT however, uses it alone to try to say that blood causes pollution. How can blood be pollution if blood is life force of all animals?  They pick and chose this tuk to try to declare women as impure because of menstruation.
 
ਜੇ ਰਤੁ ਲਗੈ ਕਪੜੈ ਜਾਮਾ ਹੋਇ ਪਲੀਤੁ ॥
Je raṯ lagai kapṛai jāmā ho▫e palīṯ.
If one's clothes are stained with blood, the garment becomes polluted

They pick and chose this next one and changed the context which is that a true sati is one who takes God as their true husband... as soul-bride.  But to push their agenda of women being inferior, they again took the tuk out of context and twisted it to sound like it's telling physical wives to see and serve their physical husband as a God.  If the original context was to forget these physical attachments and take God as your true husband, and surrender to God's will alone, then how can you view a physical husband AS God?  Certainly we are to see the divine light in ALL humans, but an individual part of a whole, can never equal the whole.  And if a wife is being told to serve a physical husband as a God, then how can she take God as her true husband as a soul bride? DDT took this tuk out of context to push their agenda. 

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥ 
Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā. 
Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,
ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥ 
Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99|| 
is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

And these are only two examples, and there are more! So you can't tell one person not to do something, that you are supporting Damdami Taksal doing the same thing.
That makes you a bit of a hypocrite! 

 

Resorting to rhetorical questions now are we??? Grasping at straws?? Your DDT current GRM was written in 1987 only!  

And why are you (a self proclaimed NON SIKH) even commenting on any of this at all!?

Direct question: have you yourself actually taken Amrit??

Resorting to rhetorical questions now are we??? Grasping at straws?? Your DDT current GRM was written in 1987 only!  

And why are you (a self proclaimed NON SIKH) even commenting on any of this at all!?

Direct question: have you yourself actually taken Amrit??

SRM is WAY more Panthic Rehet Maryada than DDT's GRM is.  And if DDT CHOSE not to participate, they really have no say now...
And Nothing was forced... they deliberated about the contents of SRM for a very long time, many scholars participated, and it was made to be most inclusive to EVERYONE.  If DDT, Nanaksar, etc CHOSE not to contribute, then they don't really have any say after the fact!

You keep saying SRM is not panthic... it's WAY MORE PANTHIC of an RM than DDT's RM!  And SRM was NOT written by SGPC!! SGPC ONLY PUBLISHES IT!

And DDTs GRM in it's current form has only existed since (if memory serves me correct) 1987??  

Though Guru Gobind Singh Ji may have started a taksal, there is no proof that the today's current so called DDT is that exact lineage. Also, the current RM for DDT was only existent in it's current form since modern time (Baba Gurbachan Singh) and Sikh Khoj already showed you that at least some of it had been altered.  

Next point, is that DDTs RM is NOT .... I repeat NOT the accepted RM by Akal Takht.  By advocating DDTs RM, you are going directly against Akal Takht.  

Last Point: VAST majority of Sikhs follow Sikh Rehet Maryada, and do not associate with any specific jatha or taksal.  If you wish to go against Akal Takht and follow an RM which is not the accepted RM, by all means (you already call yourself a non-Sikh anyway) but you can't force the Brahministic views of that specific RM on the entire Panth as if it were the universally accepted RM. Because it's NOT! 

This is what one prominent member on *another similar site* said about DDT's RM:

"Taksal maryada is not the maryada from Guru Ji. It is from from whom I said it is from. Taksal maryada has so many brahmnical rituals. How can it be from Guru Ji. Also if it was from Guru Ji. Why did the SGPC hold all those meetings and debates and discussions to make a new maryada. Maryada given by Guru Ji was lost. If Mahants were able to change Akaal Takht maryada, then what was Taksal? Taksal was nothing before Bhai Jarnail Singh. He stood up for Sikh rights and gave his martyrdom. That is how Taksal became popular but now they are taking it too far. They can try but the real Tat Gurmat will always be the way. It is in best interest of Taksal to apply Sikh Rehat Maryada given at www.sgpc.net at their deras. Else, all they are doing is hurting Sikh sentiments and going against Guru Ji. If you want to discuss more maryada issues. The reason why the Kharkoos failed was also due to their internal fighting due to following different maryadas. There are some holes in the Akaal Takht maryada but they are minor. Not something big."

Then he got the usual Taksalis bashing his post and using 5 banis as a justification to bash the Panthic Rehet Maryada and his response:

"How do you know morning nitneim was 5 banis? List me one rehatnama which says 5 banis. All rehatnamas mostly mention Japuji Sahib and Jaap Sahib. Bhai Nand Lal Singh also mentions Japuji Sahib and Jaap Sahib. The 5 bania is used as an excuse to bash the Akaal Takht maryada. Nothing else. Hukamnamas and Adaish Pdf file was available here and is still available on www.sgpc.net
Show me where an adaish was given that said taksal maryada is also Panthic maryada. Recently bibi (Jagir Kaur) was saying that all deras should follow Akaal Takht maryada and said steps will be taken to make this a reality. I know this won't happen yet.
Rehatnama Bhai Desa Singh:
Partah Uth Isnaan Kur, Parhe Japu Jaapu Doe, Sodar Kee Chonki Karay, Aaalas Kray Naa Koe|| Pehar Raate Beet Hai Jubhee|| Sohilaa Paath Kray So Tabhee||
Sakhi Rahit Kee (Bhai Nand Lal)
Sikh should rise up during late night before sun rise rise. After getting up, Sikh should recite Jap and Jaap.
Rehatnama Bhai Prehlaad Singh
Binna Jap Jaap Jpai, Jo Sayvhay Paarsaade So Bistaa Kaa Kiram Huaye, Janam Gvaanai Baad||
So Akaal Takht maryada is the one to be followed. If you are not following Akaal Takht maryada. It is not good.
If anyone chooses to read more bani, there is no stoppage. Read as much bani as you want. Not only read, but learn and apply. "
And in that same thread another good response:

"the panthik parvan reyat maryada is the akal takht one. why arent akj and taksali's not with it? is it because they think there only right and they wont give up there Ankhar. I could get a bunch of people and say we believe this and make our own maryada. Then we'll say no this maryada is right not the akal takht or taksal one is right. This AKAL TAKHT maryada is for the somuchi sikh panth. Not for just indivduals who think it is right. No matter if you think it is wrong you are supposed to agree with it. You can keep everything to yourself. A lot of study and khoj has been taken to make this maryada. People like giani dit singh, proffeser Gurmukh singh musafur, bhai khan singh nabha and other great scholars made this. They studied this it wasn't mader by stories passed on by other people to see what is right or wrong. "

and More...Since you like to accuse SGPC so much..

"HAHAHA... IM sorry to tell you but SGPC DID NOT MAKE THE AKAL TAKHT REYAT MARYADA. Please read what i had written before the people who made the Akal takht maryada it was the sikh panth itself. Not SGPC. People like giani dit singh, proffeser Gurmukh singh musafur, bhai khan singh nabha and other great scholars made this. why did they leave thjey couldve solved things out. They couldve done whatever they believed. I understand they both take stand on a lot of things. Keski's raagmala etc. It doesnt permit anyone from not wearing keski. It doesn permit anyone for not reading raagmala. Im I think they just for there own stomach they wanted everything to go there way. Who agrred on the taksal maryada if you said it is a panthic maryada? "

Equality of anyone is unscientific if you look at it.  If one man is physically stronger than you, should you have to bow to him?  

I'm not talking about equality in the sense that physically we are exact replicas.  What I am referring to, is equal opportunity.  All humans are born equal in the eyes of Waheguru.  All humans deserve MUTUAL respect and understanding, and ALL humans deserve equal rights and opportunities.  So while one man may be stronger than another man, the stronger man does not deserve more opportunities while the weaker man is made to do menial tasks and degraded and made to bow to the stronger man. And this holds true especially with religious duties and rights.  No human should be made to feel inferior in the eyes of our Creator, by being kept from seva, relegated to only menial tasks, kept from having their voice heard and kept from being a teacher and authority figure in the faith, if that is their internal calling to do so.  

What is happening, is that the physical differences between male / female are being used to limit women from positions and seva in the Sikh faith, that really have nothing to do with gender differences.  And they are justifying it by saying women should bow to men, men are higher status than women, men are demi gods over women, women's nature is only to do menial tasks in the kitchen and that limited seva, langar only is what Guru Ji gave to the women.  Or that if they do seva other than langar God forbid if they are on their periods because women are impure on their periods and might desecrate SGGSJ.  Or going even firther like Hari Singh Rhandawa suggested, that women should never do seva of SGGSJ because they could just spontaneously start having their period at any time.  Even worse, some Singhs also say women were never meant to take Amrit, or if they were it was only supposed to be kirpan amrit, making them never truly Khalsa or suggesting that women were not given the name Kaur by Guru Gobind Singh Ji.  I mean how is that NOT degrading to suggest that Guru Ji didn't even care about his daughters and suggesting that it was all made up!  And then even worse, suggesting that the only reason women were given armit later on was so they could 'serve' their husbands because their husbands would not eat from a non-Amritdhari.  Then of course, stating that because no woman that Vaisakhi day in 1699 gave her head, so as punishment, women should be scored for all time and kept from the most prestigious seva of all (as if the gender of the original five really mattered), the seva which also happens to be the 'authority' in Sikhi for decision making, which by extension keeps women from any representation in decision making (outside of committee based decisions... I mean decisions put forth to Panj Pyaras) and some Singhs say women should not even be part of Gurdwara managemant committees!  

I mean.......you'd have to be a complete idiot to not think all of the above are degrading!!!  
And all of this, I mostly got off THIS very forum, from the swath of Sikhi represented by the members on here. Because I never encountered this outside of here, ( save for a few sites where I read about yes... Damdami Taksal specifically). Nearly everywhere speaks of the equality taught in Sikhi.  And uses Gurbani to back it up.  You are using ONE tuk which can easily be seen to be taken out of context.  I mean, the shabad itself says a true sati is one who sacrifices themself to their HUSBAND LORD. One who takes the transcendent Lord as their husband... as in we are all SOUL BRIDES.  How can a Singhni follow the MAIN CONTEXTUAL message in the shabad, by doing the opposite and seeing her physical husband AS God??  If she did so, she would not be able to follow the main message of losing attachment to the physical and taking God as husband - and being a soul bride.  There's no way to follow both.  Focus on the physical husband as God, or focus on God as your husband. I know which one I will follow!  That doesn't mean I don't love my husband... but I know he is not God, even though he contains the divine light within him, same as everyone and everything.  But one part of a whole can not be the whole.  This seeing and serving the husband as God comes straight out of the Laws of Manu.... almost word for word!!! How convenient that one tuk was twisted to almost be a word for word quote of the Laws of Manu regarding women! Brahminism thinking... plain and simple! 

Paapiman what you do think women are supposed to be chained to the kitchen with a baby on each hip, barefoot and pregnant, and worshipping her husband and bowing to him and calling him God? And this is the sum of what her life should be?  And that in the Gurdwara she should sit quietly, never have a say or express her interpretations of gurbani etc, and let men do all the seva, all the leadership (except cooking of course since the kitchen is where she belongs right?). You are really twisted.  it's YOUR idea which is against Sikhi.  Your hatred of women is apparent... You even stated once on here, that Muslims have a 'good way' of dealing with women.  Suggesting what? That Sikh men should beat women into submission and subjugation? 


 
What I said was degrading is not Gurmat Principle... it's YOUR idea of Gurmat principle which is degrading...

Maharaj DID advocate gender equality!  You just refuse to see it!  I proved it with science! Look at level of atoms... there is no difference!  DNA in humans is the same regardless of gender or ethnicity etc.  
You really are a lost cause if you think this.  Good thing you wrote Bhul chuk maaf because you really ARE in error... enjoy your fake perceived higher status than women. Just shows how self centred you really are.  This poison will eat away at you.  Anyway I am done.  You have just come out and claimed that Sikhism believes in male superiority / female submission like nearly every other religion designed to keep women under men's control and limit us. Go enjoy your pedestal.... I hope you fall off.  

 

Nope and we don't have to be Brahamgyani to see all humans with a single eye of equality either.  And it's obvious that it's not referring to Gurmukh as God because the line immediately before it says that He is within and without... and the same shabad goes on to instruct us to restrain our fickle minds.  A Brahamgyani would not have a fickle mind... nor would God.  
And it makes sense that Gurbani would be saying what I wrote above because:

A husband (or anyone) should only ever be seen as God if he is actually living the qualities of God. (even though all of us contain the same light of God) 
And that means that he would also have to see her as his equal. And if she is to see him as God then that also means he is to see her a God as well.  Because if she is seeing God in him, then SHE IS THE ONE espousing the qualities of God (seeing God in everyone)... if he isn't seeing God also in his wife then first of all why did he marry her, and second, then she is actually HIGHER spiritually than he is.  

In reality every human IS just an aspect of God as God is the ONLY one who actually exists.  It's our Egos making us trapped in duality.  Are you saying that a wife should see her husband's ego as God?  Or the part of him which is ACTUALLY God? Because if it's the first... then that would be SO WRONG.  If its the second, then he has to realize she too contains the SAME.  
 
Edit: How would you know if I was a Brahamgyani or not?  We are told that only a Brahamgyani knows if they are or not... nobody else can.

See... you are picking and choosing the tuks you like.  It's very very obvious you hate women.  So you are picking and choosing whatever tuks suit your needs while ignoring the rest.  
Doing seva to help a robber would be to help him out of his ways which are against other humans.  That would include the help he would receive in jail, maybe it would be a wake up call for him to start helping others instead of hurting them.  Obviously a person who is hurting someone else needs to be stopped or else we are allowing the victim to be treated badly for no reason.  It's the ego in the robber causing him to behave like that.  Our sevs to him WOULD BE to help him overcome those things.  Jail time is part of that because he would realize his bad ways.  He would also likely receive help to be able to have a job when he was released (education) if he was lacking it, counselling for psychological issues etc.  You can't compare that to two humans one male and one female who are both behaving as good Gursikhs.  Unless you are trying to say being a woman is criminal.  
 

Im not even going to get into this again about seeing husband as God.  It's degrading....   Women should not see anyone except God as God.  Men are not gods over women. Get over it and get off your male high horse.  A penis isn't a free ticket to be considered a demi God.  See past your penis for once. 
----
Oh hey ---- you say it's INSTRUCTION for woman to see her husband as a demi God.  
Well Gurbani also INSTRUCTS for ALL GURMUKHS to see ALL HUMANS as equal.  (It says "As Gurmukh, not As "Brahamgyani") 
So then a Gursikh husband should also see his wife as a demi God in return!  If he is a Gurmukh, then he is INSTRUCTED to see her as his equal!!!!! 
There... fight Gurbani with Gurbani.  
And don't pick and choose which tuks you like and don't and then claim all the ones you don't like are for Brahamgyanis only LOL.  It's very obvious!
Also, if the husband can't follow that INSTRUCTION on equality, it means he is NOT Gurmukh... so that makes him MANMUKH!  And if he is ANMUKH he is not worthy of being seen as a demi God anyway! (you even said so!) 
And if a woman sees her husband as a demi God.  That INSTRUCTION to see EVERYONE equally, if she is Gurmukh, she will ALSO SEE HERSELF as a demi God as well!  Since she is also part of 'everyone'.  Or else she herself is not being a Gurmukh and not following instruction in Gurbani!!! 
So either way, husband and wife are to see each other EQUALLY! Or else they are MANMUKH and NOT Gurmukh!  
 

Paapiman, you know that MAJORITY of men as the age have enlarged prostrates and that means MAJORITY OF MEN dribble at some time or another and it happens FAR MORE OFTEN than you think.  So does that mean any male over 50 should be also told to never do seva because they can accidentally dribble urine on their kacheras?  Hari Singh Rhandawa himself probably dribbles urine on his kacheras!!! He should restrict himself from any seva of SGGSJ!  And since ANY MAN it doesnt even have to be older, can dribble urine... you have in all likelyhood done it at times, because the way male plumbing works... the potential to dribble is in ANY MAN for awhile after urination.  ALL MEN should be kept from ALL seva of SGGSJ!  Maybe only the older women who have stopped periods or women on medication to stop periods should be doing ALL the seva then!!! See how ricidulous this becomes.

Stop trying to use Brahamgyani as excuse with everything!  Do you think Waheguru Ji is telling you to ignore what is COMMANDED in Gurbani because you think you can never live up to Brahamgyani?  You are using it as an excuse to get out of having to listen to instruction in Gurbani.  Like a free pass or something.... hey using that one twisted Gurbani tuk you like so much to degrade women, what if I said only Brahamgyani women can ever see their husband as God.  And since I'll never be Brahamgyani I dot have to worry about it.  So it shouldn't even be in DDTs Gurmat Rehet MAryada then!  

Your thinking is truly twisted.... 
 
You know he sexually assaulted numerous women right? And they WON the cases against him...


Anyway I tried to block you why am I still able to see your nonsense responses??
 

DDT (or other small sects) can NOT speak for the entire panth Paapiman.  Majority of Sikhs do not believe in their sexist ideology.  Majority of Sikhs do not follow any jatha or taksal etc. and follow Sikh Rehet Maryada already.  They will never go to being forced to do sexist practices.  (just look at the uproar that happened with Hari Singh Randhawa over his sexist statements about women and suggesting they cant do seva at all ever... because they might accidentally have their period at any time. He was HUGELY ostracized across the entire planet - not just in BC where it happened.)
If there is ever another panthic decision on an RM it cant be made by only so called orthodox sects.  Or else majority of the panth will be left out, and will never agree to follow it.  
ANY NEW RM BEING CONSIDERED TO BE FAIR THE PANEL WILL NEED TO BE COMPRISED OF:

50% males / 50% females to have equal say
EQUAL representation of ALL the different groups
In proportion to the actual Sikh panth. 
(Meaning DDT can't have 50% of the panel be DDT because DDT do not comprise 50% of the panth.)  
So majority of the panel would be Sikhs without any association to any specific Jatha at all
And yes AKJ would even have to have equal representation just as DDT.  And the Missionaries! 
And FINAL SAY IN ALL areas of question would be put to SGGSJ ONLY.  SGGSJ IS OUR GURU.  
No man made Rhetnama (which was subject to culture influence) could have say over SGGSJ.
Get it???
THE RESULT????
You would likely end up with something very similar to Sikh Rehet Maryada anyway.  Because vast majority of Sikhs believe in gender equality, not the bias in the DDT GRM.  AKJ would definitely fight for male / female having equal opportunity in seva in addition to that.  The women on the panel would equally majority argue for equality.  And as I said majority of the panth dont follow any jatha and already follow SRM.  You'd have other smaller fights like over meat, which would likely end up in consulting Gurbani and Gurbani is very grey on it.  So again, you'd likely end up with similar result to what SRM is now.  
 
--------------

Neo... my experiences with 3HO came from a member named Kate Miller.  And the hair swinging head banging is on a youtube video... They are doing kirtan with guitars etc on stage (which I am fine with as I said) but the "sikhs" take their turbans off and start swinging their hair around. The idol worship I have see with my own eyes... I have seen them bow not only at Siri Chand idols but also at his grave in India.  (should we not bow only to SGGSJ?) And the meditation on Yogi Bhajans photo is just creepy... I watched them do it at a yoga class.  It wasn't a quick mark of respect, it was a prolonged staring at a specific image of YB and chanting.  
Other things: Sikh Rehet Maryada says to make karah prashad must be made in the traditional way.  I am assuming they don't follow SRM then?  

Dont get me wrong... I don't think they are bad people and most who do beadbi of SGGSJ (yoga with backs tuned to SGGSJ in Diwan Hall etc) are doing it unknowingly... in fact majority of 3HO members do not really even understand that most Sikhs don't do kundalini yoga.  They think yoga class IS Sikhi.  (This goes for a vast majority of them, from talking to them on the KY Facebook group).  They had no idea of actual Sikh religious practices.  They just signed up to do yoga, and then become a yoga teacher and then paid 35.00 USD for a SIkh 'spiritual' name chosen by numerology, and then considered themselves to be Sikh.  If you dont believe me, just join the kundalini yoga group on facebook and talk to some random people on there.  

Having said that some of them do practice Sikhi pretty closely.  And I have friends who are 3HO who swear that flapping your arms and legs during kirtan helps... Personally it's not for me though.  And I do like a lot of music that has come out of there  like Singh Kaur.... I do know Gursant Singh... and I think he goes overboard but he does make some good points too. Some things they do (because they have been misguided) can be labeled as beadbi.  
Did you know there was a petition to Akal Takht to try and stop some of the bad practices by 3HO? It was started in India actually... not to ostracize them completely, but just to make them aware that some practices they do they should look at changing... I don't know who started it.  
 
 

I don't have any issues with AKJ at all.  I think they are following closest to what our Gurus wanted.  They certainly didn't want Sikh women to be men's servents tied to a kitchen all day and kept from religious duties.  How do we know? Gurbani for one... and also of all the Sikhs Guru Ji sent out to spread Sikhi, included were 40 women. That is most definitely a leadership position. Our Guru armed women expecting us to also fight against injustice. But many of these groups, sants and babas like Hari Singh Rhandawa are letting Punjabi culture creep in and force women back into the role of only a meek housewife. They twist Gurbani through one liners in a self serving effort to make women look impure and dirty, and hence unworthy of any seva of SGGSJ lest they desecrate it. They do not want to entertain the idea that women can also lead, and are capable to be scholars and deserve an equal place beside Sikh men, so they cook up these ideas to 'put women in their place' so that they can maintain their high place of authority over women.  What I find the most disturbing about that video: The discussion was about women being impure, and their right to do seva. Yet the entire panel was all male.  What gives MEN the right to decide anything concerning women??? Especially without any women present to give their point of view!!!!
In the video, he goes on to suggest that since a woman can start menstruating at any time, that women should be kept from seva ALL THE TIME (not even just during their period) because they might accidentally start their period while doing seva. What a crock!  And overt discrimination based on a biological function that was created BY GOD!  Does he realize that the light of our Creator is equally within ALL HUMANS? Gurbani makes this very clear! So how can he claim that a woman is impure and is unworthy to do seva of SGGSJ when she contains the divine light equally as him? That's the same as calling Waheguru impure!  Gurbani tells us the ONLY thing which makes us impure is our ego, and that can't be washed away with water:
ਮਨਮੁਖ ਮੈਲੇ ਮਲੁ ਭਰੇ ਹਉਮੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਸਨਾ ਵਿਕਾਰੁ ॥
Manmukẖ maile mal bẖare ha▫umai ṯarisnā vikār.
The self-willed manmukhs are polluted. They are filled with the pollution of egotism, wickedness and desire. 
ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਮਰਿ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
Bin sabḏai mail na uṯrai mar jamėh ho▫e kẖu▫ār.
Without the Shabad, this pollution is not washed off; through the cycle of death and rebirth, they waste away in misery. 
ਧਾਤੁਰ ਬਾਜੀ ਪਲਚਿ ਰਹੇ ਨਾ ਉਰਵਾਰੁ ਨ ਪਾਰੁ ॥੩॥
Ḏẖāṯur bājī palacẖ rahe nā urvār na pār. ||3|| Engrossed in this transitory drama, they are not at home in either this world or the next. ||3|| 

I had to laugh at the comments on the video itself because they are suggesting urine, semen, blood are all pollution.  Did you know that when you look at things from God's perspective that there is no blood, no urine, no semen... etc at all? And its not just metaphor but an actual fact!? Every single atom is broken down into electrons and protons/neutrons. Neutrons and protons further break down to quarks. Every single quark is identical, and every single electron is identical.  Look at reality from this level and there is no male, no female, no blood, no urine, no clothing, no YOU and even no physical SGGSJ  (this is why it's not the physical pages we are revering, but instead it's the timeless TRUTH within it that we revere, else it beocme idol worship). See things from this level, and everything looks identical. There is no such thing as impurity or filth except that which Gurbani tells us... filth of the mind/Ego.

ਜਗਿ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਮਲੁ ਲਾਗੀ ਦੂਜੈ ਭਾਇ ॥
Jag ha▫umai mail ḏukẖ pā▫i▫ā mal lāgī ḏūjai bẖā▫e.
The world is polluted with the filth of egotism, suffering in pain. This filth sticks to them because of their love of duality. 
ਮਲੁ ਹਉਮੈ ਧੋਤੀ ਕਿਵੈ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਜੇ ਸਉ ਤੀਰਥ ਨਾਇ ॥
Mal ha▫umai ḏẖoṯī kivai na uṯrai je sa▫o ṯirath nā▫e.
This filth of egotism cannot be washed away, even by taking cleansing baths at hundreds of sacred shrines. 

Those who can not (or refuse to) see everything in this sense of ONEness and equality (like Paapiman), are suffering in duality. They refuse to give up their statuses, their privilege over others. These Sants and Babas who pit humans against humans in useless heirarchies and statuses are missing the TRUTH that the Gurus taught and are actually perpetuating their own prison in duality. And the filth and impurity of it can not be washed off. By merely washing their bodies, they are cleaning nothing...

ਜਿਉ ਜੋਰੂ ਸਿਰਨਾਵਣੀ ਆਵੈ ਵਾਰੋ ਵਾਰ ॥
Ji▫o jorū sirnāvaṇī āvai vāro vār.
As a woman has her periods, month after month, 
ਜੂਠੇ ਜੂਠਾ ਮੁਖਿ ਵਸੈ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤ ਹੋਇ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
Jūṯẖe jūṯẖā mukẖ vasai niṯ niṯ ho▫e kẖu▫ār.
so does falsehood dwell in the mouth of the false; they suffer forever, again and again. 
ਸੂਚੇ ਏਹਿ ਨ ਆਖੀਅਹਿ ਬਹਨਿ ਜਿ ਪਿੰਡਾ ਧੋਇ ॥
Sūcẖe ehi na ākẖī▫ahi bahan jė pindā ḏẖo▫e.
They are not called pure, who sit down after merely washing their bodies. 
ਸੂਚੇ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਜਿਨ ਮਨਿ ਵਸਿਆ ਸੋਇ ॥੨॥
Sūcẖe se▫ī nānkā jin man vasi▫ā so▫e. ||2||
Only they are pure, O Nanak, within whose minds the Lord abides. ||2|| 

Gurbani makes it very clear that the physical is not what matters. It is the mind and ego which must be conquered and duality must be renounced. Its not about this phsyical life.  Sants and Babas like him, are only spreading hatred and duality. And by the way, he equates blood as being impure same as urine and semen... its a given that as men age their prostrate enlarges and majority of men dribble urine which using his logic would also contaminate their whole clothing. At least women use hygiene protection while on their periods, while I am pretty sure vast majority of older men have dribbled and not had any hygiene product to catch it. And since it can happen at ANY TIME maybe all men over 50 should also be kept from all seva of SGGSJ at all times??? And this can even happen to younger men too! So maybe we just not have anyone at all doing seva of SGGSJ??? At the very least I am VERY sure that Hari Singh Randahawa being an older gentlemen has experienced this side effect of growing older himself.  But I am darn sure he wont ever restrict himself from doing seva because it might happen at any time! 


 

3HO centres their whole life around kundalini tantric sex yoga. They distort gurbani, and Yogi Bhajan was a crook who invented himself as a fake leader "mahan tantric" called himself "siri singh sahib" and said Akal Takht gave him the honor.  They do not use the proper Sikh greeting of Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh they instead use 'Sat Nam'.  They teach that Sikhism is yoga, they dance and throw their kesh around to gurbani being sung to folk music (I'm not against the using of guitars etc but thrashing your uncovered kesh around is bad), they give out grapes etc as karah prashad...its only supposed to be prepared one way... In fact, I get frustrated when people think I came to Sikhi through 3HO.  They are not Sikhs. They are yogis, doing hindu idol worship and claiming to be Sikhs so they can monopolize off the Sikh image.  They have Siri Chand idols and Hindu God idols around their 'ashram' (they dont even call it a gurdwara) in New Mexico.  They do meditation on Yogi Bhajan's photo!!!!!!! (so instead of simran on the one timeless eternal creator, they are basically doing simran to Yogi Bhajan). 
Please note, I am not against doing proper yoga, but kundalini yoga was invented by YB by stealing moves from other forms of yoga and adding calesthenics to it and calling it kundalini yoga.  I'm not against Sikhs doing yoga for fitness... outside the gurdwara.  But doing it in the diwan hall, with their backs to SGGSJ is HUGE beadbi!
AKJ however (as in Akhand Kirtani Jatha) I believe aside from the issue with ragmala is closest to how the Gurus wanted us to be.  Equality between all humans... No position in AKJ is reserved for men only, including Panj Pyaras.  Btw not ALL AKJ are against Ragmala... I agree with their position that both women and men should tie dastars to cover their kesh.  I don't personally agree with their reason that keski is the kakkar... however their reasoning does make sense.  That the other 4 kakkars are external gifts given by the guru where kesh is already established as one of the four bujjar kurehits, so why mention again as one of the 5 k's? They say the word was split from keski to kes ki in translation.  Whether or not their reasoning is true, I believe both should tie turbans for other reasons... Guru Ji's 52 Hukams for one instructs ALL Sikhs to tie one at all times.  Other reason is that in Gurbani it says let your total awareness be the turban on your head.  It didnt say to men only.  Also, its mentioned that anyone eating without their head covered is great sin. Majority of women do not carry a chunni everywhere, and even if they did, a chunni is near impossible to keep on your head especially if you are moving around.  So it's impractical except for in the Gurdwara where you are sitting still and even then it falls off many times needing to be replaced during the diwan... don't believe me just watch the women next time you are at the gurdwara... how many times they have to fix their chunni!  That's why I think turban should be worn by both.  Also, when Guru Ji told the Khalsa to maintain it's distinct identity... how can a Sikh woman do that without a turban when she would be indistinguishable from a Hindu woman!  (oh thats right some on here think women were never meant to be Khalsa anyway...)  I know there are many AKJ haters on here.  That's fine I don't really care. I dislike DDT / Sant Samaj as they do not embody what the Gurus taught about equality.  To each their own. 

This is why SRM is the closest we will EVER get to full panthic RM.  Because if DDT, Sant Samaj try to muscle in their idea of RM, then AKJ will be alienated.  If AKJ's practice is pushed, then the former will be alienated.  SRM was done in such a way that EVERY jatha, sect etc were included.  Just because it says 3 banis in the am doesn't mean you can't do 5. It's saying the minimum.  Regarding Ragmala it says that its up to you if you want to include it in Akhand Paaths etc. but that at the minimum it has to be INCLUDED in the SGGSJ (whether or not it is read).  As for equality... what s in SRM in every way, agrees with Gurbani.  The reason it won out when SRM was created, even with majority males contributing... was that SGGSJ is the FINAL and highest authority. So historical rhetnamas written by MEN were considered, but also understood to be subject to culture influcence.  If there was a question on something they went to SGGSJ and what was found in SGGSJ was that males do not have any authority over females, nor do they have any privilege over females for simply being male. Historical Rhetnamas are written by humans and are not infallible.  Gurbani surpasses all that.  Any new attempt at a Rehet Maryada REQUIRES these basics to be included in the panel deciding on it:
1) EQUAL amount of males and females. 50 % each
2) EQUAL amount representation of all the Jathas, and with a corresponding representation from Sikhs who do not associate to any specific jatha (which make up more than 50% of the Sikh population btw... so having representation from nearly all DDT/Nihgang/Sant samaj etc can NOT possibly speak for the whole panth)
3) FINAL authority and deciding factor on any issues that arise questions, should be given to SGGSJ ONLY... Gurbani ONLY.  Next in line would be Guru Gobind Singh Jis 52 Hukams. Not historical rhetnamas which were written by men, and subject to cultural influence. Gurbani IS GURU and deserves FINAL say! 

 


 

paapiman, you keep saying that 'sex' is bad for the body? Can you show some scientific evidence for this? Because I can show scientific evidence for the opposite.

Evidence shows that the physical pleasure of sex is only a small part of the benefit. There is evidence which suggests that regularly, it helps the body's immune system, lowers blood pressure, burns calories, lowers heart attack risk, lessens chronic pain, and actually helps prevention of prostate cancer in men and breast cancer in women. It also releases stress, and improves sleep. In addition to the physical health benefits, the hormones produced actually help the couple bond emotionally as husband and wife.

Can you imagine being married but having no relations with your spouse how would that marriage really be? You'd be living as (ok you said brother / sister instead of friends - word play semantics). If we were as you said at that top level of Sikhi where we block sex from our marriage because we are not having children or done having children... what would that do the 'blissful union' that couple undertook?

I think there is deeper meaning to this. Many spiritual paths explain an actual energy transfer happening between a couple during sex. This is not on a physical level but on a spiritual level. It's why multiple partners is not a good thing. All that energy transfer of different people, and the people they were with can become confusing. I truly believe there is something to this... because we all know the base level of everything is ONE. One energy field... ONE universal consciousness. This physical world really IS an illusion because as we peer deeper into quantum level we see the particles at some point disappear. And all that's left is one underlying energy field. Out of this field everything - ALL form arises. So our true nature is that spiritual energy. So when two beings couple, they are sharing that energy on a spiritual level... even beyond quantum level. This energy has also been referred to as 'pure light' so the verse where it says husband and wife are not those who merely sit together but become ONE light in two bodies.... to me that has a deeper level of truth. Blissful union because it happens at that base level of existence. This is something way beyond the physical.

When two Sikhs get married, it's not only to produce physical children, but to rectify two halves of a whole, and become ONE in their journey spiritually toward the same end goal. A sister / brother relationship can not possibly ever compare.

This is why I interpret it much differently than you. And also explains the verse where it says if being celebit were the key, then eunichs should have secured heaven. Sex with those who are not your spouse, is forbidden. And it's bad spiritually... at that energy level. Sex with your spouse however, strengthens that spiritual bond between husband and wife to truly become ONE soul in two bodies at the base level of all existence. The fact that there is physical pleasure is a side effect of biology. I believe the true message is to not become addicted to the physical aspects of it, become a sex addict, have sex with tons of people... because by focusing on ONLY the physical aspect of it, you will miss out on that spiritual deep connection. YOU are the only one hurt by this.
But with that ONE person you vowed to spend your life with in front of Guru Ji, working towards merging back with Creator together on the same journey as ONE... this is a gift. Sex is not merely just a physical tool for procreation only.

You can chose to believe however you want, but rather than listen to other's opinions of Gurbani, I read it myself and look at the whole picture. Many things are not written word for word... they are intertwined with allegory and metaphor. I see many descriptions of celestial vibrations, anhad naad, light / cosmic sounds in Gurbani. Consciusness and matter being intertwined.... It all comes down to one thing... vibration is frequency. All of these things are vibration or frequency in ONE medium.... In and of them self they are nothing.... they require a medium, and that medium is pure consciousness. And there is only ONE consciousness in existence. So sex for a married Sikh couple can bring them closer as ONE jot in two bodies, which will help them in their journey toward merging back with Creator.

Hmm if being intimate with your own spouse is wrong, then why get married? If it's only for a baby, then a woman can easily go get artificial inseminated. If a married couple only wants one child, are they supposed to never touch each other again after the child is born? Once the woman becomes infertile in mid 40's the married couple should get separate beds and become just friends? What's the point of marriage then? You can do all else with just friends.

I thought the Gurus were in support of living house holder life and not that of an ascetic who avoids living. I have always read that there is a huge difference between showing caring and love for your spouse, and becoming attached and lustful. And that relations with your own spouse is fine. I am approaching 40 fast, and being married soon... to an Amritdhari Singh. He is NOT DDT affiliated though if that matters. But maybe since many women my age have trouble conceiving and carrying to full term, in your opinion should I just forget about marrying him and just have him as a friend? Same as all my other friends? SInce there is a good chance I may never have a child? I don't see a point marrying someone if you will only ever be 'married' in name only. And this doesn't seem right... Even the Amritdhari couples I know, who wanted one child, I am absolutely positive they have not all of a sudden got separate beds and decide to live as friends.

Also is it anything that gives pleasure should be stopped? I get pleasure from skydiving, also playing guitar. Should I stop those too because they have no direct practical conclusion. They are only done for pleasure...

Can you provide quote from SGGSJ to support this stance? I could not find anything about it in Sikh Rehet Maryada. It seems as long as a couple go through anand karaj, Sikhi seems to stay out of the bedroom so to speak... Is this only a DDT interpretation?

Edit: When I searched in SGGSJ for this topic, in many places where it warns about being engrossed in sexual desire, it also talks about hunger and pleasures of the 'mouth'. I think is a good comparison, because it would be impossible to cut out food altogether. But if you interpret the lines in the way you have, you would have to also cut out all food. It doesn't make sense. I think the message is more about control, and moderation. Eat but don't overindulge... relations with your own spouse are ok, but not to the point of sexual addiction or lust...

Page 224, Line 4
ਕਾਮ ਕ੍ਰੋਧ ਬਿਖੁ ਭੂਖ ਪਿਆਸਾ ॥
काम क्रोध बिखु भूख पिआसा ॥
Kām karoḏẖ bikẖ bẖūkẖ pi▫āsā.
by sexual desire, anger, corruption, hunger and thirst.

---
Further, I have found on several sikh sources online that kaam is defined as 'uncontrolled sexual desire' not ALL sexual desire.

And what about when Guru Ji says: Bind Raakh jo Tariho Bhai, khusrey kion na paramghat payee ???

Also:

Raag Aasaa, Pannaa 418
Some control their sexual energy and are known as celibates, but without the Guru's word, they are not saved and they wander in reincarnation II6II

This seems to suggest that merely by avoiding sex, will not get you to God... seems to support sex with ones own spouse is fine, but do not let it control you.

My thoughts exactly LOL. How can they put those stories to video format without them being x-rated? 

The key to this is in the second line which you have posted and gives the context for the first line. In fact, it's actually an incomplete sentence in the first line....

Those mortals who consume marijuana, fish, and wine (speaking of useless rituals); no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals (the qualifier referring to the previous line) they follow, they will all go to hell (obviously not literal hell, as all that exists is the ONE, but Hell for Sikhs is to be separated from God, so it's saying these things won't help you to become One with God.)
In other words, the Gurus admonished blind rituals and taught that they were useless in our pursuit of merging with Waheguru.  There were many ritualistic practices involving mind alerting substances like marijuana (bhang), opium, and wine (alcohol) - and yes even fish in India...  It is the useless ritual which is being scorned in the above...it's saying all these fake blind useless rituals will get you nowhere.
Example of a Ritual Fish:

We can see further down in the same shabad that it was no the act of eating fish or meat which is being scorned but the ritualistic behaviour... when it's stated that the Brahmins may be the Gurus of the physical world, but they still 'rot and die' in the useless complexities of the rituals in which they partook, but still no closer to God:

ਕਬੀਰ ਬਾਮਨੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਜਗਤ ਕਾ ਭਗਤਨ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਹਿ ॥
Kabīr bāman gurū hai jagaṯ kā bẖagṯan kā gur nāhi.
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees. 
ਅਰਝਿ ਉਰਝਿ ਕੈ ਪਚਿ ਮੂਆ ਚਾਰਉ ਬੇਦਹੁ ਮਾਹਿ ॥੨੩੭॥
Arajẖ urajẖ kai pacẖ mū▫ā cẖāra▫o beḏahu māhi. ||237||
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. ||237||
And finally again in the same shabad, Kabeer qualifes it all by saying that God is not foind through useless rituals etc. because God is within everyone and everything... in every grain of sand, and states there is no difference between himself and God:

ਸੁਨੁ ਸਖੀ ਪੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਉ ਬਸੈ ਜੀਅ ਮਹਿ ਬਸੈ ਕਿ ਪੀਉ ॥ सुनु सखी पीअ महि जीउ बसै जीअ महि बसै कि पीउ ॥ Sun sakẖī pī▫a mėh jī▫o basai jī▫a mėh basai kė pī▫o. Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul. 
ਜੀਉ ਪੀਉ ਬੂਝਉ ਨਹੀ ਘਟ ਮਹਿ ਜੀਉ ਕਿ ਪੀਉ ॥੨੩੬॥ जीउ पीउ बूझउ नही घट महि जीउ कि पीउ ॥२३६॥ Jī▫o pī▫o būjẖa▫o nahī gẖat mėh jī▫o kė pī▫o. ||236|| I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. ||236||

ਹਰਿ ਹੈ ਖਾਂਡੁ ਰੇਤੁ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਖਰੀ ਹਾਥੀ ਚੁਨੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Har hai kẖāʼnd reṯ mėh bikẖrī hāthī cẖunī na jā▫e.
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.  (permeates everything)
ਕਹਿ ਕਬੀਰ ਗੁਰਿ ਭਲੀ ਬੁਝਾਈ ਕੀਟੀ ਹੋਇ ਕੈ ਖਾਇ ॥੨੩੮॥
Kahi Kabīr gur bẖalī bujẖā▫ī kītī ho▫e kai kẖā▫e. ||238||
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. ||238||
 
So we can easily see this shabad is not saying anything about the act of eating meat or fish for sustenence.  It's speaking about useless rituals / pilgrimages / fasts etc as a means to find God, saying all these methods are fruitless when God is in everything and even yourself.  Don't worry about outward shows (rituals), instead focus within your own self, where God is merged like sugar in the sand... immerse yourself in the creation and God by realizing that God is everywhere.  The elephant can't see it because he is separate from the sand... instead if we become like the ant and immerse ourselves within the sand then we will realize we are surrounded by Waheguru.

No but you can eat plenty of things that will keep you healthy without having them taste good. Eating for pleasure is also discouraged... but we all do it. We all add masala to our curries, we all add sugar to our kheer. Pleasure is not bad. It's addiction to pleasure that is bad. I don't know why you think pleasure itself is a sin. God created pleasure as a gift... one that should be appreciated. But not taken for granted and abused.

Like our drug analogy. Sex between spouse if there was no pleasure at all, you'd be hard pressed to have any children. And the spouses would not be close as a family. The medicine, is that sex brings husband and wife together as one... and strengthens their bond. Abuse of sex however creates addiction to the mere physical pleasure of it, instead of the closeness and bonding between spouses. There is a huge difference.

We can agree to disagree....

Further that shabad you posted, is Simply a plea for wordly things... it's not saying these things are acceptable. For exmaple, he begs also for 'fine clothes' - yet we are supposed to dress simply are we not?? A 'fine' horse... he even begs for a 'wife' to clean his house, speaking of that wife as a simple servant or comodity, no different than the other things he begs for in the same shabad... It's hardly a free license to consume ghee!! Learn to read entire shabads instead of one liners Paapiman! It will do you some good! This shabad is simply him begging God for pleasures in life who he refers to as the 'arranger of the affairs'
ਧੰਨਾ ॥ धंना ॥
Ḏẖannā. Dhannaa: 
ਗੋਪਾਲ ਤੇਰਾ ਆਰਤਾ ॥
Gopāl ṯerā ārṯā.
O Lord of the world, this is Your lamp-lit worship service. 
ਜੋ ਜਨ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੰਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰਤਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Jo jan ṯumrī bẖagaṯ karanṯe ṯin ke kāj savāraṯā. ||1|| rahā▫o.
You are the Arranger of the affairs of those humble beings who perform Your devotional worship service. ||1||Pause|| 
ਦਾਲਿ ਸੀਧਾ ਮਾਗਉ ਘੀਉ ॥ 
Ḏāl sīḏẖā māga▫o gẖī▫o.
Lentils, flour and ghee - these things, I beg of You. 
ਹਮਰਾ ਖੁਸੀ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਤ ਜੀਉ ॥
 Hamrā kẖusī karai niṯ jī▫o.
My mind shall ever be pleased. 
ਪਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੀਆ ਛਾਦਨੁ ਨੀਕਾ ॥ 
Panĥī▫ā cẖẖāḏan nīkā.
Shoes, fine clothes, 
ਅਨਾਜੁ ਮਗਉ ਸਤ ਸੀ ਕਾ ॥੧॥ 
Anāj maga▫o saṯ sī kā. ||1||
and grain of seven kinds - I beg of You. ||1|| 
ਗਊ ਭੈਸ ਮਗਉ ਲਾਵੇਰੀ ॥
Ga▫ū bẖais maga▫o lāverī.
A milk cow, and a water buffalo, I beg of You, 
ਇਕ ਤਾਜਨਿ ਤੁਰੀ ਚੰਗੇਰੀ ॥
Ik ṯājan ṯurī cẖangerī.
and a fine Turkestani horse. 
ਘਰ ਕੀ ਗੀਹਨਿ ਚੰਗੀ ॥
Gẖar kī gīhan cẖangī.
A good wife to care for my home - 
ਜਨੁ ਧੰਨਾ ਲੇਵੈ ਮੰਗੀ ॥੨॥੪॥
Jan ḏẖannā levai mangī. ||2||4||
Your humble servant Dhanna begs for these things, Lord. ||2||4||