CdnSikhGirl

The difference is my statements are ALL entirely in response to posts that were suggesting women 'shouldn't be allowed to do this' or 'women have loose morals' or 'women should have less privelages in sikhi' or 'women shouldn't even be given the same Amrit as men' or 'women can't possibly maintain rehet to the same degree as men' etc. My posts are all defensive against such above remarks and merely calling out the men for it. And yes it's been from day one....

Show me one post even where any of you say that sikh men and women should be treated equally, or that in the face of inequalities even in this modern world that sikh guys should stand up for the equality taught by the gurus about every human and that Singhs should be supportive of the equal status given to Kaurs in Sikhi. There isn't even one. I've just done searches for the terms 'women' 'bibian' etc and in every single thread are comments suggesting women shouldn't be treated equal, women shouldn't be given same privelages in sikhi, women are all loose morals, they can't maintain rehet, even one now saying merely giving birth to a child means a woman breaks rehet.

I have never posted anywhere suggesting men should be treated less than women.., not once. I merely keep pointing out the men who keep saying these things about Sikh girls who are supposed to be their sisters. And you are trying to call this sexist against men? Never did I say or suggest men should be treated as less than women or that men have less capability to maintain rehet or suggest men are all loose morals etc. So you are taking that even merely suggesting that men and women should be treated equally in Sikhi is some kind of sexist remark against men???? Really???? That just proves my point!

That's the big difference. I'm promoting equality between gender as taught in Gurbani... Same divine light in everyone... And you are trying to suggest that if I try to defend against inequality touted by 'some males' on this forum, then you are saying I am being sexist. Huge difference!

Chaz JI, you are referring to the Astral level only, when there are many more above it... Physical -- etheric -- astral -- mental --

So to say that the Astral realm is limited --- well yes it is... because the astral level is only a small portion of what exists. You can't experience ONEness in the astral level, but you can in levels much higher.

How do you ascend to higher levels? You have to raise your frequency to detune the astral level and tune into a higher level. And remember that consciousness is pure frequency so you have it within you. Also remember that love / caring etc are emotions which have a higher brainwave frequency... while anger and jealousy and fear cause lower brainwaves... so that is a starting point and also why seva helps. Its why those who are angry and fearful and jealous have much trouble progressing spiritually at least until they resolve the conflict.

And yes, I have experienced at least briefly the feeling of ONEness before, and while connected in that state, I lost connection to any sort of form. It was like I was the smallest pin point of consciousness, but at the same time I was everywhere. However it was very brief... I did experience the level above astral once... but never again after that one time.

Also, you ARE part of that source! YOU already know the way there.... you are NOT something separate from the creator. THAT'S the illusion...

Chaz JI, you are referring to the Astral level only, when there are many more above it... Physical -- etheric -- astral -- mental --

So to say that the Astral realm is limited --- well yes it is... because the astral level is only a small portion of what exists. You can't experience ONEness in the astral level, but you can in levels much higher.

How do you ascend to higher levels? You have to raise your frequency to detune the astral level and tune into a higher level. And remember that consciousness is pure frequency so you have it within you. Also remember that love / caring etc are emotions which have a higher brainwave frequency... while anger and jealousy and fear cause lower brainwaves... so that is a starting point and also why seva helps. Its why those who are angry and fearful and jealous have much trouble progressing spiritually at least until they resolve the conflict.

And yes, I have experienced at least briefly the feeling of ONEness before, and while connected in that state, I lost connection to any sort of form. It was like I was the smallest pin point of consciousness, but at the same time I was everywhere. However it was very brief... I did experience the level above astral once... but never again after that one time.

Also, you ARE part of that source! YOU already know the way there.... you are NOT something separate from the creator. THAT'S the illusion...

Chaz Ji I have to disagree with some of what you wrote...

From my experiences with AP / EP while it's true that you are experiencing higher levels through other subtle bodies, there is the whole experience of what lies between those levels. It's not a direct experience... but more the knowledge that the subtle bodies are just more vehicles - but your consciousness remains intact. That means the part of you that is the experiencer, the 'doer' is not those subtle bodies at all. So it's realization through indirectly experiencing it. The direct experience with God comes from the realization that you yourself are formless... that everything is ONE, everything is the same one universal field of consciousness... therefore, the DOER in all of us is one and the same. You can experience this when you go higher (just look up a map to the planes of existence, the higher you go, the more detached and less 'personal' you become... until in the highest of realms, you actually experience ONEness. There was a GREAT diagram made by Tim Duerden based on knowledge from several spiritual paths, linking the subtle bodies to the planes, and showing where the limit of the 'personal self' etc is in the grand scheme of things... His site however is down, and I can't find it again. But there are others that illustrate it.

The way I explain OBEs: Nothing is leaving anything at all. YOU ARE. Imagine you are a radio. Only the radio is formless... basically you are pure consciousness. All that exists is pure frequency (even the physical... Einstein even said that matter is merely energy vibrating at a slow frequency) So you, the radio, are focused on only one radio station at a time... the physical, the etheric, the astral etc. You never left anything, you only 'tuned' into a higher frequency station. All stations, all frequencies however are ALWAYS received by the antenna... it's the tuner that choses the station. In our case in the physical world, as Einstein stated, low frequency = slow vibration = matter. The higher frequency you go, the higher 'stations' you tune into, you get more complex structures but less matter (for example, plasma, gases etc are higher frequency than solids). Watch an oscilloscope though as you change a pitch higher, the faster a wave vibrates, the closer the peak and trough become until you reach a point where it appears there is no more vibration, only one discrete frequency... it looks like a straight line instead of a wave. So eventually you go high enough to just experience the pure frequency itself = ONEness = God realization.

This is just a way I try to get the idea across... using a radio as comparison makes sense to me when we are talking frequency....

Bhenji

If you want to know about spirituality you ask a guru.

If you want to know about colour you don't ask your mates in a gurudwara or ask from "debate-specialists" on forums.

If you want to know about colour you ask an artist.

I'ma leave this quick photoshop right here...

I know it's messy but it gets the point across. Pale skin is actually perfect for wearing such colours. Pink and pale skin don't match because they are both pale. (Pink is a pale red.)

Pink is pale, white turban is pale, your skin is pale... too much pale bleh

Wear bright red and bright yellow pagg. And make sure you get some yellow designs on the red suit and try to match the turban with the yellow designs.

Wear some red and yellow bangles as well.

BOOM!

I hope I ruined all your plans.

Guru Gobind Singh ji wearing the same colours

That's what I was alluding to That everything we 'hear' is really internal.. its really our soul that is hearing and not the physical body.
Having experienced the OBE state, I can say that I know what the feeling of movement without feet is like... and hearing without ears... Basically when I say the entire universe is vibration... its because everything arises out of the ONE consciousness... matter is all just energy vibrating at a slow state (comparatively speaking). Our true nature is actually nonphysical.

btw I am really loving this forum... as I am finding lots of like minded people here nice to meet you!

I have experienced sounds I can't describe to others during some spiritually transformative events. Some were like static, rushing, pusling, electrical, vibrational sounds..... Other times more like wind. I have also heard sounds that were more like chimes like I was surrounded by hundreds of wind chimes. It's really difficult to explain to others that the sounds are indeed actually 'heard' even though they are not something from the outside environment.

Thing is what we consider to be sound is only what our brain deciphers the electrical signals to be. ALL sound is internal. Until our brain deciphers the pressure waves in the air and the choclea changes it to electrical signals.... What we perceive as sound does not exist at all. Sound requires a source, a medium, and a receiver. Without the receiver (your ear) it remains as mere pressure waves in a medium (air). So to me the interesting thing is to wonder where are we receiving the signals from, that we are recognizing as sound? And I find it very very awe inspiring that over 500 years ago, our Gurus knew that the basis of sound (and everything in existence) was vibration, long before science knew!!

All is ONE, and ONE is ALL

The ONE contemplated itself. It had nothing else to contemplate, and in that contemplation, the 'spark' of creation.

The ONE we know is formless, yet possesses all forms. How can this be?

If we look at quantum physics, we know that the base of all the Universe is vibration... pure frequency.

Light, heat, radio, radiation, colour, sound, even matter itself all exists through vibration. Thought too, is pure frequency and brainwaves can be measured by EEG.

Why is this important? The clues MUST be within the Universe itself... consciousness, is formless, yet can possess all forms (dreams, imagery, thought, creativity) Thoughts do not take up 'space' they create space (imagine yourself dreaming, how can you quantify the space your dream takes?)

This is important, because the base of all existence is pure frequency. At the lowest end is said to be sound... Every major religion in the world, speaks of a primal sound or 'word' that created the Universe. Most go beyond that and say that the word or sound itself IS God.

My thoughts on anahad naad, is that it's the direct experience of this primal 'sound' - which goes way beyond simply hearing a sound... as you yourself are created into existence by this same force, then the experience going within and interacting directly with the source, is overwhelming. It's not just hearing something, but actually experiencing the base truth of existence. And that truth is ONEness. That everything we know as matter, separateness, even our own identity is an illusion. It's no longer belief... it's knowing.

By going within, you are actually dissolving the illusion and discovering the truth of your existence. You do hear an audible sound... which itself is indescribable, and I have only gotten to this stage and also OBEs, but beyond this is only actually merging with it. Laying down your whole built up identity and becoming one with it. I have not reached that stage.

These thoughts are only my own, I in no way purport to be any sort of expert...

I live in toronto and I frequent a taksali gurduwara and I see bibis doing parshad seva to chaur sahib seva etc every single day. I also know of other taksali gurduwaras doing the same. This year the taksali gurduwara I frequent had a whole day sukhmani sahib reading smagam from Sri guru Granth sahib ji in the main hall for Mara sahib kaur birthday. My sister participated.

The Singhs from DDT are in a taksal(school) which doesn't have any women so all the singhs have to do the seva. That's could be possibly another reason why Singh is written all over the place.

First of all ..about that tuk...it is not describing laws of marriage ..

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥
is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||

my opnion is ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
means one who sees the Lord as His/her beloved ..i tell you the reason why i feel so ..there is no mention of stree which is woman ..so this is not looking gender specific.

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ

Satee means a true One ..the ritual wherein a lady would sit on her husband's pyre was also called Satee....it begin with ladies who kind of commited suicide to escape the invaders during mughal rule and then it was taken as tradition...there is no hindu scripture which insists on ladies committing suicide like this. they might talk about something that happened but that is not a rule ..and by the way ..Maharaja Ranjit Singh's wives had commited Sati. .

I will do some more research on this ..i am not a scholar ..however since i am born and brought up in India ..i am familiar with the language. I take advie of Gianis from Siri Hazoor Sahib too.

The 'Husband' spoken about is Akaal...

In the GRM there exists some satatments that are very hard to justify as anything but sexist. I would like someone to please clarify because some of you delcare that the GRM is THE RM of Guru Ji, and that it is infallible. You also state that women are not excluded from anything except Panj Pyare (that they are free to participate equally in every other seva and that women are seen as equals by Damdami Taksal) but statements like the ones I am about to post paint an entirely different picture. Not only is it not only Panj Pyare that specifically states 'Singhs' other positions of authority - all of them (Granthi, Akhand Paath etc.) - also state 'Singh' so therefore using the reasoning that Panj can not be women because it says 'Singhs' means you also have to restrict women from nearly every other seva as well.

It's not just in the context of Panj Pyare that states 'Singh' in GRM. Therefore, contradictory to what some of you have stated about DDT treating women as equals aside from Panj Pyare seva, women are actually restricted from almost ALL seva by DDT:

Quoted directly from DDT's OWN website, and their OWN copy of Gurmat Rehet Maryada...

Women can not prepare Karah Prashad, or recite Anand Sahib:

" Two highly disciplined Singh’s should prepare Karah Parshad and bring it into the presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee and then recite Anand SahibA prayer of bliss which was revealed by the 3rd Guru, Sri Guru Amar Das Jee "

Or act as Granthi:

"The Panj Pyare and Granthi Singh are to also clean their Kirpans and Karas with sand and then wash their GatrasKirpan holsters;"

...and it's not just Granthi for Amrit Sanchar either:

"After completing the verse, the Granthi Singh is to place the Rumala back over Sri Guru Granth Sahib."

Or birth ceremony:

"An Amritdhari Singh should get a Sarab Loh bowl and half fill it with water."

Or paathi during Akhand Paath:

"The Paathi Singhs are to wear clean clothing and must bathe before starting on their Paath seva."

Or Chaur Sahib Seva:

"One Singh is to do Chaur Sahib Seva whilst one is to go ahead of Satguru Jee…”

Or kirtan / Ragee.....even if there are no male Ragees:

"If Ragee Singhs cannot be found, then the Granthi Singh is to recite each Lav, place the Rumala over Guru Sahib and then recite "Satnam, Vaaheguroo" whilst the couple walk/circumbabulate around Guru Sahib."

^^^ THIS is why women are still unable to do kirtan at Sri Harmandir Sahib... the opposition was DDT and Sant Samaj. And THIS is why!!!!


Further reading of GRM brings to light some statements directly found within the Gurmat Rehet Maryada that outright states that women are beneath men:


GRM under heading Haraam – Adultery, sexual relationships outside of marriage:

"A Singh must look upon his wife as his faithful Singhni (follower). In the same manner a Singhni must look upon her husband as Parmeshwar (God)."

Damdami Taksal directly instructs women in the GRM to view their husbands as God, while the men view their wives as a faithful follower... a subordinate. She is not even instructed to simply view him as a leader in a family sense, but in a sense that his authority over her is the same as if he were God....or not even 'as if he were' but she is too look at him AS God!

Note: It has been suggested that this statement has some deep hidden meaning. However, Gurbani may contain metaphors and deeper meaning meant to be contemplated, but this is found in the GRM... Rehet Maryada is direct instruction to be followed! It is not meant to be some poetic and deep meaning, or else we could contest also the statement about Panj Pyares being 'Singhs' also being poetic! So if Rehet Maryada is a direct instruction, then it's clear what it is telling women to do.

Further investigation reveals more remarks in this light:

Here is another example… found in the GRM under the heading Fasting, where the entire meaning of the shabad in its original context has been ignored so that the exact opposite meaning of one tuk was misinterpreted to suggest that women should view their husbands as God. This I believe was the basis for the line I quoted above. However, when the entire shabad it was taken from is taken into context, it becomes apparent that the meaning was twisted to become something sexist.

Here is the correct translation - when taking into account the meaning of the FULL shabad in it’s entirety:

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥
is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||


In contrast here is DDT’s translation of the lines above:
(http://www.damdamitaksaal.org/26-code-of-conduct)
Directly written in GRM, found under the heading Fasts:

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
"Guru Jee says, she who looks upon Her Husband as the Lord, is blessed and has firm faith; great are

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥
those wives and they are received with honour in the Court of the Lord."



Damdami Taksal’s translation does not make sense when you take the entire shabad as a whole:

This entire shabad speaks out against the practice of satee by Hindu wives on their husband’s funeral pyre. The Shabad is suggesting that the wives do not become filled with so much attachment to their husbands that they kill themselves when their husbands die….That the true satee is in continuing to live through the loss and instead to see the Transcendent Lord as her husband (as we are all instructed to do as soul-brides).

Damdami Taksal are taking it way out of context, ignoring the full shabad, and then translating those two lines wrongly to mean the opposite of what they actually do! They take it to mean that wives should view their husband as the Lord (in other words suggesting the wife should submit to her husband and be subordinate to him as though he were God).

It makes absolutely no sense in the context of the entire shabad, and besides that it goes against what is written in Gurbani about equality, status of women, and the fact that the SAME divine light is within everyone, males and females equally! It also sounds to me like an attempt to Bhraminize Sikhi as this concept of women viewing men as God is seen in Hinduism (Mahabharata/Smriti: husbands are the highest diety of their wives) and also Islam for that matter (Quran: Muhammad makes statement that if he were to have anyone prostrate anyone else it would be the wives prostrating their husbands).

SGGSJ however, speaks to the equality of gender:

Page 1020, Line 15
ਆਪੇ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
You Yourself are the male, and You Yourself are the female.

Page 96, Line 9
ਏਕੋ ਪਵਣੁ ਮਾਟੀ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਸਭ ਏਕਾ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਬਾਈਆ ॥
There is only one breath; all are made of the same clay; the light within all is the same.


Here is the full context of the shabad those lines were taken from so you can see the actual meaning:


ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fifth Mehl:
ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਆਏ ਸੰਜੋਗ ॥
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, they come together through destiny.
ਜਿਚਰੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਤਿਚਰੁ ਭੋਗਹਿ ਭੋਗ ॥੧॥
As long as the Lord commands, they enjoy their pleasures. ||1||
ਜਲੈ ਨ ਪਾਈਐ ਰਾਮ ਸਨੇਹੀ ॥
By burning oneself, the Beloved Lord is not obtained.
ਕਿਰਤਿ ਸੰਜੋਗਿ ਸਤੀ ਉਠਿ ਹੋਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Only by the actions of destiny does she rise up and burn herself, as a 'satee'. ||1||Pause||

ਦੇਖਾ ਦੇਖੀ ਮਨਹਠਿ ਜਲਿ ਜਾਈਐ ॥
Imitating what she sees, with her stubborn mind-set, she goes into the fire.
ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸੰਗੁ ਨ ਪਾਵੈ ਬਹੁ ਜੋਨਿ ਭਵਾਈਐ ॥੨॥
She does not obtain the Company of her Beloved Lord, and she wanders through countless incarnations. ||2||
ਸੀਲ ਸੰਜਮਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਾਨੈ ॥
With pure conduct and self-restraint, she surrenders to her Husband Lord's Will;
ਤਿਸੁ ਨਾਰੀ ਕਉ ਦੁਖੁ ਨ ਜਮਾਨੈ ॥੩॥
that woman shall not suffer pain at the hands of the Messenger of Death. ||3||
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,
ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥
is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||


I believe inconsistencies like this are what are breeding the feelings that women should be beneath men in some sort of divine hierarchy as was suggested many times on this forum.

Remember this is written directly in the Gurmat Rehet Maryada that many of you are demanding that everyone take as THE rehet maryada of Guru Ji. How can it be THE Rehet Maryada of Guru Ji when it goes so far against his teachings of equality, and takes single tuks out of context of the shabad they are from to misinterpret them into something that instead of uplifting women like was originally intended (as easily seen when the entire shabad is read in its full context), it instead puts them in to subordinate position? So how can it be stated to be THE Rehet Maryada of Guru Ji and how can it be claimed to be infallible when inconsistencies like this are blatently apparent, just by viewing the full shabad?? (in ANY language, English, or Punjabi) the shabad itself is what gives the context!

Remember that the quotes above are from Damdami Taksal's OWN website, from their OWN copy of Gurmat Rehet Maryada!

Or how about THIS doosey of an inconsistency for you: Sant Jarnail Singh Ji stated he is against women in Panj, but he stated that women should be allowed all other seva. So he actually spoke AGAINST what is stated in Gurmat Rehet Maryada. If indeed DDT's GRM is THE RM directly from Guru Ji himself, then why would SANT Jarnail Singh Ji speak AGAINST it??? It's obviously clearly stated that only Singhs can do most of the seva right??

Can anyone please explain??

I think he gave his life for Sikhi for that I respect him but I don't have to agree with everything he says, as other Sants and him disagree on points so it makes them still human.

Please read my other post

The SRM maryada does not uphold either view as binding on the Panth. If one wishes to follow the SRM then they should with honest intention, and as yourself who follows the akj rehat, so should you with honest intention follow that. To pick and choose at SRM and try to force it on the panth is wrong.

Eating eggs only compromises rehat in your view. Its very arrogant to strongly advise giving up eggs.

Myself, during Simran, I have experienced what I can only describe as an internal primal sound. But it's not the sound itself that is the crux of the experience... it's the realization that ALL is vibration / frequency. From light, heat, radiation, magnetism, energy, radio, microwave, colur, even matter itself at the subatomic level manifest from vibration at different frequencies. The realization too, that you are not your physical body, but pure frequency...but even more, that there is only ONE awareness... that primal sound, the universe, that awareness, Creator, creation and you are ONE in the same. It's profound... and that is the very best I can seem to do with human words...

Anyway, this very in-depth abstract about it was posted on another site and I thought I would share:

Myself, during Simran, I have experienced what I can only describe as an internal primal sound. But it's not the sound itself that is the crux of the experience... it's the realization that ALL is vibration / frequency. From light, heat, radiation, magnetism, energy, radio, microwave, colur, even matter itself at the subatomic level manifest from vibration at different frequencies. The realization too, that you are not your physical body, but pure frequency...but even more, that there is only ONE awareness... that primal sound, the universe, that awareness, Creator, creation and you are ONE in the same. It's profound... and that is the very best I can seem to do with human words...

Anyway, this very in-depth abstract about it was posted on another site and I thought I would share:

indeed, am enjoying the input of 'open minded' individuals that are more interested in inspiring and learning than combating beliefs...

That's what I was alluding to That everything we 'hear' is really internal.. its really our soul that is hearing and not the physical body.
Having experienced the OBE state, I can say that I know what the feeling of movement without feet is like... and hearing without ears... Basically when I say the entire universe is vibration... its because everything arises out of the ONE consciousness... matter is all just energy vibrating at a slow state (comparatively speaking). Our true nature is actually nonphysical.

btw I am really loving this forum... as I am finding lots of like minded people here nice to meet you!

Don't worry... I have been studying Sikhi for about 18 years... Not exactly new at it. I am not leaving... And don't get me wrong... Please I am not a man hater... I just think we all should be treated equally, even with our biological differences. I mean equal opportunity. I have been pulled to Sikhi from when I was young and have never deviated. I treat everyone equally whether man or woman. They get the same respect .., I consider neither one an authority over the other. It's an equal partnership in this life. Is that so bad? I have never had an issue. Now I have met a Sikh man and we are doing Amrit together actually as we feel that will solidify our journey together in life and in Sikhi. And he considers me his absolute equal... He would never think of ordering me around etc. it's a bit late for marriage as we are both late 30's and I have been alone nearly my whole adult life (not even dating) but I know this path is the right one... I can't explain, it's like I have been before.
I guess my unique position gives me insight into the faith without the cultural influence which may not be part of the actual Sikh teachings. My hopefully soon to be husband is punjabi btw.

With much respect chatanga Ji I am not looking to make enemies... Just don't want to be seen or respected as less than men because I happened to be born with two X chromosomes this time.

The sun gazing reminds me about something. I lived on a carribbean island for 2 years. So watching the sunset was often a beautiful experience. I would go out for a walk , find a rock to sit on, and coordinate my rehraas sahib with the sung going down. It was beautiful experience when I think about it. The beauty of the sky, the sun, chirping of birds and moist air added to the experience. And I loved the symbolism of the sunset too.

I tried to meditate with the waves of ocean, the sounds and wavy nature. But that often gave me nausea , sea sickness, so didnt have much success with that.

Another element that I used at some points was the full moon. I imagined my body receiving the moonrays at night, cooling experience. Witnessing a moonrise/moonset in ocean is a beautiful element in itself. Also, the full moon reminds me of Poranmashi, the avtar of Guru Nanak Ji.

Its amazing when we can use elements of nature into our practice.

That's what I was alluding to That everything we 'hear' is really internal.. its really our soul that is hearing and not the physical body.
Having experienced the OBE state, I can say that I know what the feeling of movement without feet is like... and hearing without ears... Basically when I say the entire universe is vibration... its because everything arises out of the ONE consciousness... matter is all just energy vibrating at a slow state (comparatively speaking). Our true nature is actually nonphysical.

btw I am really loving this forum... as I am finding lots of like minded people here nice to meet you!

The most time I spent in one position without moving must have been 1.5 hrs... and it was with the military at a very important parade for remembrance. I was chosen to be a sentry at the cenotaph. That requires bowed head, and rifle resting on boot and your hands crossed over the butt (of the rifle) and not moving once in that position for the entire time. The parade was a blur actually... I think I kind of was in meditation - thats the only way I can explain how I made it through. It was also very hot outside that day and sun beating down. Some very strange recollection of time that day actually... it was like I said about 1.5 hrs but felt like only 15 mins. (felt it the next day though lol)

Pen Jee,
thanks for such an inspiring and natural post; but if allowed I would like to share some points along :

The brain may be the receptor and decipher the electrical signals received, and is useful when there is body ....

But what about, when one deceases, and there is no physical body with its organs?

The thing is , the mind receives information through the senses and the physical organs. And all this, is limited between the material parameters.

Saints tell us, that the soul has the faculty to see, which is called "nirat", and the faculty to listen, which is called "surat".

Christ also referring to this topic says in the Bible: having eyes yee see not, having ears yee hear not.

Sachay Patshah Dhan Guru Angad Dev Maharaj also, tells us something on this Sound listening and seeing, in His pure paviter Bani of Raag Majh:

ਅਖੀ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਵੇਖਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਕੰਨਾ ਸੁਨਣਾ
Akhee Baajhahu Vaekhanaa Vin Kannaa Sunanaa
अखी बाझहु वेखणा विणु कंना सुनणा
To see without eyes; to hear without ears;

Here He is telling us, that, that power of Truth, of Shabad or Naam which is within us, is reverberating all the 24 hours, which can be seen and listened to, and for that, we do not need these physical eyes nor these physical ears. So what He is saying is, that Primal Sound or Shabad, has existed right from the very begining, and is the source and origin of everything seen or unseen.

Christ also says in the Bible: In the begining was the Word(Shabad), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....

Now most of us can not listen or see the reulgence of that Shabad within, and that is because, our minds are filled with the filth of karmas, desires, revenges, anger, hatred, falsehood ...... but that does not mean, that the Shabad of which our Guru Sahibans and all the true Gurmukhs or Bhagats talk about, is something a product of their imagination.

Nay.

It is their very interaction and experience with that ultimate and Supreme Truth, known as Shabad, Anhad Bani, Amrit Bani, Naam ..... different words have been used by different Lovers of God, at different places and times, but all do refer to the same Power

ਪੈਰਾ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਚਲਣਾ ਵਿਣੁ ਹਥਾ ਕਰਣਾ
Pairaa Baajhahu Chalanaa Vin Hathhaa Karanaa
पैरा बाझहु चलणा विणु हथा करणा
To walk without feet; to work without hands;


ਜੀਭੈ ਬਾਝਹੁ ਬੋਲਣਾ ਇਉ ਜੀਵਤ ਮਰਣਾ
Jeebhai Baajhahu Bolanaa Eio Jeevath Maranaa
जीभै बाझहु बोलणा इउ जीवत मरणा
To speak without a tongue-like this, one remains dead while yet alive.


In the above 2 lines, Satguru Jee is telling us, that not only can the soul see and listen without physical eyes and ears, but it can move and fly also, without any feet nor hands to work.
Naturally all these references by Guru Jee, are of the spiritual aspects of the soul alone, not of the body...

Now we may ask, what is the work of the soul which Guru Jee refers to?

Well, He clearly refers to the work of devotion, of bhagtee of Wahiguru ....

In which, one need not do anything such as rituals, customs, idol worship, etc(outer practices), in order to have the Darshan of the Jot of Wahiguru, and listen to the divine melodies emananting from that Shabad .....

But that much, as, His bhajan bandagee

Further on He reveals us some secrets for one´s spiritual progress and achievements, that, one need not the tongue to recite nor read anything in performing His devotion, but to do His Naam Simran with concentrated attention, in order to gather our dispersed consciousness throughout the nine portals of the body, and enter the spiritual realms, and there with the aid and guidance of Naam, through its Light and Sound, return back to our Nijh Ghar Sach Khand.

That is why the Bani says: Shabad Guru, Surat Dhun chela. The Shabad is our True Guru, and the disciples/ sikhs or chelas are our souls.

Sat Sree Akal.

chzSingh JI,
You are right , experiences come and go. Whatever is bound to happen will happen with time in Guru's Grace. I myself don't seek OBE's as the main goal. As you said, Gurmantar should always stay the main focus.