SikhKhoj

And yes, Taksal, Nihangs etc all have a tribal mentality. Only AKJ, Missionaries and 3HO are okay in the equality part

The overemphasis of external rehat is surely stunting not only Sikhis growth but also our inner growth. The same shackles of mala, janeu, mullahs beard, prayer mat that the Gurus broke to emphasise on the inner are being repeated in our dharam in the name of Kakkars. No one is denying their importance, but without inner sidak they are of no use.

In the last 100 years we have become so extremist (in the wrong way) that we shun Sehajdharis, while historically we've always had the Khalsas and Sahejdharis. We are rewriting history and renaming people who might seem to be Sahejdhari (like Bhai Kanhaiya).

Well then don't quote books you haven't read. Tell me the exact name of the book and page number which mentions 8 wives of Guru Har Rai, a thing which doesn't make sense even if written historically because there are also books claiming Guru Tegh bahadur committed suicide. But it would be nice to see what kind of sources your Gurbachan Singh used.

And secondly, show me where the post of 'akal takht jathedar' is mentioned in history. First show me that, then we discuss whether nihang chiefs were also jathedar of takth.

The overemphasis of external rehat is surely stunting not only Sikhis growth but also our inner growth. The same shackles of mala, janeu, mullahs beard, prayer mat that the Gurus broke to emphasise on the inner are being repeated in our dharam in the name of Kakkars. No one is denying their importance, but without inner sidak they are of no use.

In the last 100 years we have become so extremist (in the wrong way) that we shun Sehajdharis, while historically we've always had the Khalsas and Sahejdharis. We are rewriting history and renaming people who might seem to be Sahejdhari (like Bhai Kanhaiya).

So what do we do when one is in conflict with the other? I remember reading an article online that shows a huge contradiction between SGGSJ and Dasam Granth. They both can't be right... Some sects put Dasam Granth in even level with SGGSJ which is wrong. Gurushio was given to SGGSJ only so that means Dasam Granth while important writing... Is not to be final authority on anything.
They also compared writing styles in Dasam Granth and while banis like jap sahib are obvious other writing like chitropakyan is not able to be attributed to Guru Ji. Even then it's being used in wrong light by groups like DDT to put women in lower light when that's not what it's saying. It's very obvious what it's saying:

1 Oppress any group ( in this case women)
2 they will still find a way to have their own needs and desires met
3 the only way they can do that is to manipulate who is oppressing them ( in the case of those stories the men)
4 the only answer is to restore balance of power through equality

But anyway the style of writing was completely different when it was analyzed and that's why it doesn't seem authentic to some. Also Dasam Granth was compiled after Guru Ji left his physical body. It was compiled by others and not Guru Ji himself. It would have been too easy to insert extras by someone who wanted their own opinion heard.

So I will say again: it's important historical writing but it's NOT our Guru Ji m. Only SGGSJ is

DDT is a sect. Their Rehat Maryada is in no way more authentic than any other sects.

Akal Takht is our supreme temporal seat, its Maryada might have some flaws but its the most correct without sect-minded influences which dilute Sikhi. The SRM does not hold one person in extreme respect and thus obeys their every (even anti Gurmat) stance, the SRM tries to act according to the teaching of Gurmat and history not the so called mystical experiences of Babas who dream that 7th Guru married 8 women.

We do only have one Rehet Maryada. There is only one Rehet Maryada recognized by Akal Takht - the seat of Sikh authority - called Sikh Rehet Maryada.... Problem is some who didn't get their own way, went off on their own and disregard it. And they then try to force their own RM down everyone else's throats as 'THE word of Guru JI" to try and guilt everyone.

Paapiman - you just stated that not everyone needs to follow the same RM because different people require different instruction. But then, in the same breath you will usually try to shoot down whatever RM is NOT DDTs by usually adding "DDTs RM is THE RM of Guru Ji himself". And you have actively shot down SRM numerous times, even though SRM is the closest we have to Panthic RM through years of deliberation by literally hundreds of Sikhs from different backgrounds. SRM was created by removing all the 'differences' and keeping what everyone had in common as common ground. SRM was created taking all the Rhetnamas into account (including Daya Singh and Chaupa Singh) but using only SGGSJ as the end 'test' to which the finsihed product was compared. This ensured that anything in those original rhetnamas which was likely culture influence or personal opinion were removed. And only Gurbani ultimately decided the code of conduct.

I think you just hate SRM because it doesn't tell women they have to worship you as God. (BTW overwhelmingly, majority of Sikhs totally understand that in that tuk you love so much, 'she' is not speaking of physical women/wives, but of 'soul bride' which we all are, including you... and husband spoken of is Husband Lord = God).

Also something you should learn Paapiman: a TRUE leader would never have to DEMAND respect from anyone. Or ever put such a rule into writing in a Rehet Maryada... that is the sign of a weak leader. A TRUE leader, LEADS BY EXAMPLE, not by putting themselves on a pedistal above everyone else. The bigger the Ego, the harder the fall. I hope you learn that someday.

But glad that you openly stated now that different people can follow different rules / instructions so please stop trying to guilt anyone who doesn't follow DDTs RM.

I told you, missionaries overquestion but I also won't believe Lav reincarnated as Panj Pyara and some Bhagats came back too. Thats nonsense. Nor did 7th patshah marry 8 sisters. Confused polytheists haha

Shad yaar, mere valo sarea nu goli maar, ik rehat chahidi jo SGGS di bani te khari utardi hove bas

and before you call me a missionary
WAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Apparently Baba Thakur Singh Patiala kissed a lady from the sangat on her lips too? His audio clips are available, trying to justify his misdeeds. If he is so pure why didn't he do defamation case? What answer will I expect from brainwashed people on here? "Brahmgyani di mauj, its his will he sees something we can't and thus won't do case" HAHAHA

DDT and other babas are as guilty of twisting Bani as Satkiran has shown for the wife regarding husband as God tuk. And many more 'lies' lying in their kathas.

AKJ has its fallacies too. Keski as Kakkaar. No Raag Kirtan. Sarbloh Bibek. etc

WJKK WJKF

I just want to say hello. I was referred here by someone else, who suggested this was a very good place for discussion of spiritual / philosophical aspects of Gurbani etc.

Myself, I am a gori Canadian girl, who found Sikhi in my 20's after a lot of comparative religion and deep inner journey, which stemmed from some deeply spiritual experiences I had when I was younger. I eventually ended up on the path to Sikhi because when I read SGGSJ for the first time (in English) things just 'clicked' and I literally got shivers reading it.

That was over 5 years ago. I have been going to the gurdwara here locally for over 3 years now (99.9% Punjabi Sangat - I never came to Sikhi from 3HO... just want to make that clear since lots of people automatically think white = 3HO and I am not) Anyway I am heading to India for the second time - just 3 weeks from now and I am taking Amrit while I am there

Hope to get to know you all, recognize some names already...

WJKK WJKF

Exactly!!! So why are DDT / Sant Samaj etc doing it?? Changing Gurbani meaning to suit their likings?

To be honest, there is not much of a difference in the ways traditional Nirmalas, DDTs and Nihangs distort Sikhi and Missionaries and Bhasaurias on one side.

The sad thing is that even broad minded people like Neo fall in the trap of labelling one as saints, thus their every statement contradicting to Gurbani is explained with fairy tales but attacking every minor thing said by missionaries.

For me it is as blasphemous saying that 7th Guru married 8 sisters, Gurbani while walking is anti-Gurmat as people who say Guru Nanak Dev Ji ate halal and Guru Arjan Dev Ji fainted on the hot tavi.

can anyone explane me why kirtan sohilla cannot be recited while walking.

* Why is it that we are always ready to accept facts written in old books and stories related to some places even if they are in direct contradiction to Gurmat?

* If Brahmgyanis really do get their knowledge from God, then how come we have had brahmgyanis who contradict each other on major issues such as Ragmala, Kakkaar (Bhindranwaley vs Randhir Singh), brahmgyanis who said Sant Jarnail Singh was alive for 20 years but yet Sant Ji fails to show up after 31 years? Nihang brahmgyanis who consume meat while all other brahmgyanis frown upon it. Nirmala/Udasi brahmgyanis who let hair loose while Taksalis would beat up any Sikh without dastar and flowing hair.

Fact is that good, noble souls who meditate, connect to god and fight for justice do exist BUT claiming that they are all knowing and putting your full confidence in every of their words is your own stupidity.

You are REALLY trying to drag that one misinterpreted tuk as justification to subordinate women and put them beneath men arent you?? Why are you so concerned about "putting women in their place" anyway??

Here are two translations... I will edit and add the rest later. I have about 10 different translations and ALL say see God as Husband... not see husband as God. Because I already showed you wehre it says God is equally in ALL of us. So having this one tul by istefl trying to subordinate women beneath men or to sugegst that only women should see men as God and not the other way around goes against rest of Gurbani! We are to ALL see God in EVERYONE!



Bhai Manoman Singh Translation:

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.
Say Nanak, She who looks upon the Supreme Lord as her Spouse,

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥
Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99||
is the blessed chaste wife, and she becomes acceptable in God's court.



Dr Sant Singh Khalsa Translation:

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਿਉ ਪਰਮੇਸਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਨਿਆ ॥
Kaho Nānak jin pari▫o parmesar kar jāni▫ā.
Says Nanak, she who looks upon the Transcendent Lord as her Husband,
ਧੰਨੁ ਸਤੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਪਰਵਾਨਿਆ ॥੪॥੩੦॥੯੯॥
Ḏẖan saṯī ḏargėh parvāni▫ā. ||4||30||99||
is the blessed 'satee'; she is received with honor in the Court of the Lord. ||4||30||99||


And... have you ever thought the possibility that even if you twist it backwards like you have... that its still not talking about PHYSICAL WOMEN. It's speaking to the feminine soul... SOUL BRIDES concept. Because the only true male is God and rest of us are referred to as female in Gurbani!

The 'SHE' spoken of in the line in your above interpretation would still not mean a 'physical woman' but instead would mean soul bride....Which ALL OF US are....male and female alike!!!! So then it would apply to you too!

We should ALL consider our Husband to be God. (not our physical husband) but ALL of us should consider our true spouse to actually be God. We (all of us male and female) are soul BRIDES, and GOD is the Husband Lord. Because ultimately our souls relation to God is our true marriage.

It still wouldn't be an instruction for a physical woman to see her physical husband as God!

Yes, Gurbachan Singh quotes that Kirtan Sohila sakhi - Guru ji bleeding sakhi.

While Kirtan Sohila is a bani to be recited before going to sleep, you can recite it at any time, and also while walking. Thus the name of the bani doesn't change the fact that it is still bani.

Gurbani encourages us to jap naam whenever and wherever we can, such sakhis have put unnecessary dubidha in us. Check threads on SikhSangat to see how confused, narrow minded many Sikhs are and how they worry about trivial things instead of focussing on Gurbani updesh (which again is for all mankind).

The Shabads adressed to Muslims also count for us, the Shabads about Yogis also count for us, the Gurbani updesh is the same. If gurbani doesn't forbid us to chant bani while walking then I dont see why we should believe these things.

All I find in your posts is 1+1 = 3

^ This is why

Satkirin sees the truth because her mind is not conditioned to justify everything one individual or sect says, people like Papiman are ready to go against Gurbani to defend their Baba. Sad.

Gurbani tells us about spiritual avasthas of bhagats and kings like janak... and how far they got.
They were all out of lakh chaurasi and cycle of rebirths.

The degree of gurbani distortion as shown by sikhkhoj is just unexplainable and a way lot more than I previously imagined.
I have absolutely no interest in a discussion of praising or doing nindya of ddt.....They are what they are... and they don't inspire me.
Taksal means ''offcial mint'' just like money, coins or a dollar bill isn't genuine or official unless it has been endorsed with seal of mint.

It can be seen with the distortions and claims, that ddt is not the official gurmat as it claims.
The only offical seal in gurmat, is that by Guru Arjan Dev ji's Mundavani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Guruji sealed the gurbani for each individual soul to understand and apply to themselves as they progress themselves in sikhi. He also authorized the "Kunjhi(key)" of Bhai Gurdas jee's vaars, which we can openly use to cross reference and gain deeper understandings of bani.
He didn't leave it for any taksals or other authorities, to dictate it's meaning, just as sanskrit vedic texts were left for brahmin castes.

Because every sect had members at some point that associated with other groups that eventually trace back. So every sect has its origins from same one point. There was only one Khalsa. Every one since came from same origin!

1. Guru did not marry 8 sisters because first of all it makes no sense. Secondly this fact is not supported historically.

2. Why are you ignoring the fact that the same panna mentions:

ਗੁਣ ਗਾਵੈ ਸੁਖ ਸਹਜਿ ਨਿਵਾਸੁ ॥ ਗਇਆ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਆਇ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ The human being that chants the virtues of the Lord dwells in peace and poise; he is liberated from the cycle of rebirth.
Bhagats were not into cycle of reincarnation. They wrote Bani for us, why are you or DDT dragging them into reincarnation?

Satkirin, I would rather say God is genderless instead of being both. Because gender is associated with 'joon' (incarnations, life forms) while God is above that thus above gender.

685, Guru Granth Sahib ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕੋਊ ਕੈਸੇ ॥ He is not male, and He is not female; how can anyone describe Him? Guru Nanak Dev

Satkirin, I would rather say God is genderless instead of being both. Because gender is associated with 'joon' (incarnations, life forms) while God is above that thus above gender.

685, Guru Granth Sahib ਨਾਰਿ ਨ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕੋਊ ਕੈਸੇ ॥ He is not male, and He is not female; how can anyone describe Him? Guru Nanak Dev