Is This The Language We Use For Sikh Heroes?

[kamalroop singh]

http://neo-sikhism.blogspot.com/

How can a Sikh use this kind of language while describing the holy Shahids? Is this neo-Gangstar Sikhism what we wish to portray to the world, and the youth? If a non-Sikh had written this, what would be the response?

http://www.shindasingh.com/blog/2009/05/11/another-badass/

I’ve already shared one Badass with everyone, now it’s time to drop another.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume that the majority of my readers aren’t exactly experts on Indian history, so it’s probably a safe assumption that you’re not familiar with the story of the Sikh martyr Baba Deep Singh. Well, it’s time to get educated — because this dude is one of the most hardcore freedom fighters to ever live, and a guy so extreme balls-out in his insatiable quest for vengeance that something as inconsequentially-trivial as being admin cut decapitated couldn’t stop him from crushing his enemies to death with his nutsack.

[akalisodhi]

The owner of that blog did not write the article it was originally posted by a fellow named Ben on

www.badassofthweek.com, it is a story of Sikh history written in by a person from out side the Sikh faith, yet it talks of the Sikhs in a very positive way. Personally I loved the article, actually the whole site is pretty cool. I think a little bit of education it better than a whole lot of ignorance.

[shaheediyan]

With all due respect - it's a an article by a monkey, aimed at an audience of monkeys.

Sikh parchaar has class, style, art and depth. This trash is for the braindead - it is only likely to encourage braindead thinking and behaviour, rather than inspire intelligent thought.

[Samadhi]

Its just the way he's portrayed his message (wasnt really my cup of tea.)

However if i had read this like 5 years ago i reckon i proberbly would have loved it. As shaheediyan said it is properly for more of the less intellectually minded people out there

[Dynamic_Banda]

And to the Bhramin Dhanna was just a braindead uneducated monkey who lacked "class, style, art and depth."

Yet with his unique intention and true nature and the grace of akaal he gained alot more then the bhramin ever could.

Then again thats my opinion I too am known for my lack of class style art and depth so i guess the statement that it will only attract braindead thinking was probably correct

But thank the Lord Guru Nanak is universal and has a place for all of us .. even the bad asses !

[shaheediyan]

Point taken Dynamic, but your comparison of Bhagat Dhanna Ji to this idiot is offensive.

Bhagat Ji may not have been educated, but they were certainly the epitome of innocence, devotion, faith, purity of mind, humility and love.

Our friend is simply a Dynamic Bander with no real interest in, nor respect for Akaal Purkh Di Fauj. In fact, it is his 'intelligence' which leads to him to think that 'respect' (the real one) must be an outdated neanderthal practice. The words sharda, nimrata and izzat obviously are cool enough for his badass dictionary.

[dalsingh101]

Brother, you're going on like all Sikhs are highly sophisticated and educated. That isn't true and you know it!

[shaheediyan]

Education and sophistication are limited to the middle classes or education institutions - these qualities can manifest in terms of ones attitude towards Sikhi in all spheres. Basic mannerism and respect is not much to ask for - if this idiot had spoken about Baba Deep Singh using the Punjabi equivalent of the above language in front of Singhs in India, I am sure you know what the consequences would be. There is such a thing as rehni behni - which includes a certain standard of communication, if not sophisticated, then at least polite/well mannered (unless you are giving the enemy a lalkaara - which is done in an amazing poetical way in any case IMO).

I already conceded to Dynamic that not all Sikhs are educated (in any way), but a true Sikh at least has sharda when speaking of such personalities.

Forgive me for removing my diamond studded 1kg Khanda medallion and choosing to opt out of the 'Tigerstyle' generation.

[dalsingh101]

Education and sophistication are limited to the middle classes or education institutions - these qualities can manifest in terms of ones attitude towards Sikhi in all spheres. Basic mannerism and respect is not much to ask for - if this idiot had spoken about Baba Deep Singh using the Punjabi equivalent of the above language in front of Singhs in India, I am sure you know what the consequences would be. There is such a thing as rehni behni - which includes a certain standard of communication, if not sophisticated, then at least polite/well mannered (unless you are giving the enemy a lalkaara - which is done in an amazing poetical way in any case IMO).

I get what your saying but boy, if any people swear in their communication, it is Panjabis. Pan this, Pan that. Ma****, salay kutay, harami etc. I don't know if you are new generation but as someone who has mixed extensively with first generation Panjabis, their use of language is hardly polite all the time and the use of expletives is very common. Go work in a Sikh building company for a week and see. Like nihungs don't curse and swear anyway.

I already conceded to Dynamic that not all Sikhs are educated (in any way), but a true Sikh at least has sharda when speaking of such personalities. Forgive me for removing my diamond studded 1kg Khanda medallion and choosing to opt out of the 'Tigerstyle' generation.

That guy is guilty of a poor choice of words at best. If you look at the underlying message, it s one of awe. I accept that the guy expresses this in a very crass way. But don't overlook the admiration behind the comments, which is easy to do. I'm not saying his choice of words are great but put things in perspective. His comments are akin to Panjabi style "Bwaaaah", no need to get upset, the guy probably just needs a few discrete words said to him to understand.

Anyway enough of this, I'm not here to defend other people's poor choice of words but he is like a teenager using the language of the weight training, alpha male generation. Baba Deep Singh is a big warrior for him.

[shaheediyan]

I wasn't talking about day to day use of language - I was talking about reference to Mahapurkhs.

[Malwe Da Sher]

I dont think its a matter of wrong word choice. Rather it appears the right topics and being degrading by being dicussed within the wrong cultural sphere. The matter if not of ethnicity, class, sophistication or education but of poor cultural choices. Reminds me of when someone said Gurbani should be translated into ghetto language so more people can understand.

[Ishraqi]

People like that exist in all second generation communities that have adopted this global trend of immitating the Afro-American Lumpenproletariat and its sub-culture. It's not just a Sikh problem. You'll find them among Hindus and Muslims too. The problem is complex: it's the decay of the education systems in the West, the low social and educational level of the migrant communities and the massive influence of Anglo-Saxon global media with the trash culture it vehiculates and that includes this Afro-American rap "culture". It affects all minority communites and even mainstream youth now.

What reinforces it is that apology of stupidity provided by religious groups that disencourage intellectual activity. The argument that education was not important for a person like Bhagat Dhanna makes actually no sense. First of all in the society of his time he was not expected to be educated. His task was ascribed to him by the fact that he was born in a caste. Nor was he a citizen participating in a political process of decision making. The example of Dhanna doesn't apply at all in societies where the individual is considered to be a free citizen participating in the political life of his nation. This implies education because:

1. The citizen has to assimilate the cultural and political discource of the nation he lives in.

2. He has to be able to relate to it.

3. His knowledge and education is a prerequisite for the correct functioning of society i.e. he takes his political decisions based on acquired knowledge and the ability to debate, contradict and criticise.

The other aspect of the question is that education is in many countries considered to be a prerequisite for a meritocratic social ascension. In the France's system there are universities and then above them the Ecole Normale which is an elite university system training the elite of the country. The prerequisite for it is intelelctual achievement. This is in no way comparable to medieval India where there simply was no social mobility.

But what this "article" shows is the decay of that meritocratic system due to:1. the influence of anti-intellectual culture of the youth media since the 60s 2. the lowering of educational standards in order to accomodate that decay as well as the low educational level of migrant communities 3. a political will to dumb down citizens to the extent of making democracy a word devoid of any meaning.

The question you should ask yourselves is not wether this is a appropriate language to talk about a Sikh martyr. It clearly isn't appropriate. The question is: what are the reasons behind it and how do you fight it.

[shaheediyan]

"Like nihungs don't curse and swear anyway."

Outside of lalkaarai, after meeting a numbner of Nihangs in Anandpur Sahib, Hazur Sahib and various Gurdwarai in delhi, I only came across one that actually swore (at Baba Phoola Singh Bunga). All other others were extremely polite. so I don't think its fair to tarnish a whole group of Sikhs based on a stereotype. If you are going to look for examples, then look at the Nihang Bazurg and Mahapurkh.

[dalsingh101]

Ishraqi I agree with much of your post (very well written BTW!), but there are some elements I question.

People like that exist in all second generation communities that have adopted this global trend of immitating the Afro-American Lumpenproletariat and its sub-culture. It's not just a Sikh problem. You'll find them among Hindus and Muslims too. The problem is complex: it's the decay of the education systems in the West, the low social and educational level of the migrant communities and the massive influence of Anglo-Saxon global media with the trash culture it vehiculates and that includes this Afro-American rap "culture". It affects all minority communites and even mainstream youth now.

I know rap today can be foolish, but originally it provided a voice for people culturally marginalised by the mainstream Anglo-Saxon/Jewish dominated media. There was much conscious rap produced not so long ago that had a very positively empowering effect on some the people who were most vulnerable in a very biased America. A part of hip hop (at least the original type) is simply Afro-American folk culture or expression. It was not all about biatches, hos and bling. In the late 80s/early 90s it was also a vehicle for a strong black consciousness movement (see Jungle Bros, Public Enemy etc.). Me personally, I enjoy Bhangra, as part of my cultural heritage and outsiders could equally attack it for being "low brow" and "vulgar". The truth is that people like Kuldeep Manak were producing the equivalent of "gansgta rap" a long time before blacks, albeit with some variation.

What reinforces it is that apology of stupidity provided by religious groups that disencourage intellectual activity. The argument that education was not important for a person like Bhagat Dhanna makes actually no sense. First of all in the society of his time he was not expected to be educated. His task was ascribed to him by the fact that he was born in a caste.

This agree with. I also note that the discouragers of intellectual activity really like to bandy about the famous versus by Guru Nanak, about having mounds of books but no spiritual knowledge as some sort of justification for being semi/uneducated. They use it like a defensive shield.

The question you should ask yourselves is not wether this is a appropriate language to talk about a Sikh martyr. It clearly isn't appropriate. The question is: what are the reasons behind it and how do you fight it.

Nicely put, but until it is rectified, we shouldn't be blind to the fact that people may genuinely have a relatively (and I use the word relatively very specifically here), positive attitude to that which they are discussing with their common vulgar vernacular. The writing under discussion is a case in point in my mind.

[Ishraqi]

dalsingh101 wrote:

I know rap today can be foolish, but originally it provided a voice for people culturally marginalised by the mainstream Anglo-Saxon/Jewish dominated media. There was much conscious rap produced not so long ago that had a very positively empowering effect on some the people who were most vulnerable in a very biased America. A part of hip hop (at least the original type) is simply Afro-American folk culture or expression. It was not all about biatches, hos and bling. In the late 80s/early 90s it was also a vehicle for a strong black consciousness movement (see Jungle Bros, Public Enemy etc.). Me personally, I enjoy Bhangra, as part of my cultural heritage and outsiders could equally attack it for being "low brow" and "vulgar". The truth is that people like Kuldeep Manak were producing the equivalent of "gansgta rap" a long time before blacks, albeit with some variation.

Well, as someone pointed out in another thread Bhangra was the occupation of low castes that were paid to perform it at weddings. I myself feel great shame when I think of my days of ignorance occasionally dancing bhangra. There is something deeply dehumanising about the bhangra culture that takes away the dignity of man to make him behave like a monkey. I don't want to start a debate on dancing here but it comes as no surprise to me that rap culture would meet Bhangra culture in second generation communities because they celebrate the same degrading spirit. As for rap vehiculating political messages: when a political message becomes a commodity that you can buy and consume it loses its value. Rap killed the afro-american movement that Malcolm X started. Malcolm X encouraged people to educate themselves, learn Latin, be cultured. All this political music is just another way to divert a serious cause from its aim.

[shaheediyan]

Confusing true Punjabi folk and that trash they call bhangra is numskullery.

Punjabi folk was akin to a proto-religion - it gave solace at deaths and happiness at births and marriages - whilst imparting important wisdom for people to cope psychologically with loss or to balance their happiness with a prudent outlook on the reality of their joy.

It was a basis for imparting courage and hope, it related stories of pure love as well as media communication channel of events at ground level. It was the original system for recording and preserving history.

It was such a strong force in the lives of the Indians that the Gurus incorporated it in large swathes in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

To further compare an art which positvely enlivened a nation to one that has become the scurge of mankind and cause of animalistic behaviour, well...

[dalsingh101]

Rap killed the afro-american movement that Malcolm X started.

That's a bold statement brother. A lot of people (granted older ones) will say that rap introduced them to their history with references to Marcus Garvey for example.

To further compare an art which positvely enlivened a nation to one that has become the scurge of mankind and cause of animalistic behaviour, well...

Well, you know many Pakistanis feel that Bhangra and Panjabi culture in general does just that, bring out animalistic base instincts.

[Ishraqi]

dalsingh101 wrote:

That's a bold statement brother. A lot of people (granted older ones) will say that rap introduced them to their history with references to Marcus Garvey for example.

Even if they were introduced to the ideas of Marcus Garvey, rap culture killed the Afro-American movement transfroming a community that could wake up into a living joke. And no, Obama doesn't count as a victory of the Afro-American movement.

[Xylitol]

Rap still is a vehicle for promoting independant thought. Unfortunately, that kind of rap does not get airtime on radio stations and tv.

Here are some Sikh rap songs, which go beyond just issues affecting the Sikh community:

Mati Dass:

Soulja's Story:

voice for the voiceless:

shoutouts to white girls:

[jsingh96]

Rap killed the afro-american movement that Malcolm X started.

What an uneducated statement.

The rap that you are most likely are talking about, gangster rap, was only came into being in the very late 1980's, 1989ish, and had its most famous raise in the 90s. At least that is when it appeared on the music market for sale. Even in those early days, from the late 1980's to the mid to late 1990's, gangster rap was usually done by black rappers who had grown up in rough conditions, and usually they were just speaking of their story, of how rough their living conditions are etc. Nowadays, rap has evolved to something else however.

[Ishraqi]

Jsingh96 and Xylitol since when have songs brought about a revolution or changed anything for that matter? A vehicle for independant thought? Please let me laugh!

How is buying a record published by one of the major media corporations a revolutionary act? Supposing that there is some good content about it: do the records teach how thes elyrics are to be implemented? NO! At the end of the day it is just a commercialization of "revolution". It's all nice to see kids with Malcom X T-shirts and listening to rap but it doesn't change a iota to the situation.

What brings change is action by men of vision and courage not sing-song and rap. Liberal capitalism thrives on the idea that people who are discontent with the system are buying records that criticise it. Because the one who just spent 16 pounds or so on a record is :YOU!

It's easier to buy a record or listening to it rather than educating oneself, learning languages, philosophy, history etc in order to challenge the structure of the system and fight it appropriately.There is a difference between making a song about a revolution that happened and singing about one that will never happen because one is too busy playing the juggler...because at the end of the day that's all these pop, rap, bhangra and celebrities are: jugglers. One of the signs of Kaljug is the fact that these people are even taken seriously for a start.

Btw I make a clear distinction between these people and classical musical traditions. I would never dare to compare a Bhai Avtar Singh with those kanjar bhangra "singers", nor would I dare compare a brilliant opera singer like Natalie Desay to a kanjari like Madonna.

[dalsingh101]

dalsingh101 wrote:

Even if they were introduced to the ideas of Marcus Garvey, rap culture killed the Afro-American movement transfroming a community that could wake up into a living joke. And no, Obama doesn't count as a victory of the Afro-American movement.

How are they a joke say compared to the Latino community? I'm just trying to understand your train of thought. Granted, rap is not what it used to be. I think younger people just take free-er mediums such as Internet for granted and not realise that the not so long ago, the only thing you would really hear is the biased voice of goray pretending to know everything and be right about everything.

[Ishraqi]

dalsingh101 wrote:

How are they a joke say compared to the Latino community?

I forgot to add that the Latino youth is a disgrace too with their own adoption of rap, gansta culture and the whole papi chulo culture.

[dalsingh101]

Flippin hell Ishraqi. Have you got a good word for anyone?

[Mithar]

Flippin hell Ishraqi. Have you got a good word for anyone?

I think he is against youth popculture of all ethnic communities.