Behsharam

[Liono]

Just read this on the forums, this guy has got no shame, and no beliefs, actually his beliefs are the worse I ever heard. This guy is No Nihang, he believes more in old newspapers than Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee, the everlasting Truth. Also this guy believes in Idols at Darbar Sahib (How much is he getting paid :roll: ), believes in adultery in 'certain' circumstances (wonder what his wife thinks of that) and Singhs used to get pissed before they went to battle (obviously this guy likes to judge the whole of Sikh history by his standards) :

"On March 27th, 2005 Parmjit Singh whom I heard belongs to the UK Nihung Jatha came to Toronto to speak in a conference organised by a Sikh organisation here. We found out about his arrival and decided to attend the conference.

Some Singhs reached there at 11:30am but I and four other Singhs reached there around 3pm. Couple of minutes after our arrival, Parmjit Singh started his lecture. He began his lecture by complaining how the definition of Sikhi was so broad in old days and how it became narrow in the last century or so. Others may not have known but I knew that he was referring to the Singh Sabh movement that brought clarity in Sikhi; the clarity that had been lost because of the fact that Khalsa was busy fighting in jungles and non-Sikhs were the custodians of our gurdwaras at that time.

He showed many pictures and newspaper clippings from last two hundred years. Then he showed the picture of Baba Khem Singh Bedi and he greatly showered praise on him. One of Bedi’s picture was an embodiment of Guru-dumm. It showed Bedi sitting on a throne and a person doing chaur on his head. I interrupted by raising my hand and voiced my comments that it is pure Guru-dumm to do this. Parmjit Singh said something like it was a practice of that time and also expressed his doubts on the authenticity of the picture. I was wondering, why show such a picture that can be misleading and can promote Guru-dumm. I was wondering why he showed such picture that he himself has doubts about.

The lecture continued with I continuing to interrupt where I found objections. I think Parmjit Singh was a bit upset at my comments. At one point, he said something along the lines that it is unfortunate that at one time there used to be idols in the parkarma area of Darbar Sahib but some fundamental Sikhs threw them out. I immediately stood up and corrected him by informing him that it was against Gurmat to have idols at Gudwaras.

He replied by saying that we should let idol-worshippers to come to Darbar Sahib. I replied back saying that even today all idol-worshippers are welcome to all Gurdwaras but these idol worshippers are not allowed to place their idols at our Gurdwaras. He said that if we let them place the idols at the parkarma, they would listen to kirtan and then perhaps change. I said that to do parchaar of Sikhi we cannot break the rules of Gurmat and maryada or Gursikhi. Others in the audience agreed with what I said.

I explained that these idols and other anti-Gurmat practices had crept in our Gurdwaras because the management of our Gurdwaras was not in the hands of Khalsa at that time but in the hands of mahants who did not follow Gurmat. The Singh Sabha movement fixed these problems and maryada was once again restored in our Gurdwaras.

Then he showed a picture of a woman who looked like a good and pious woman but did not look like a Sikh woman. She was wearing a Sari, had a bindi on her forehead and had earrings. Parmjit Singh said that this picture was of a Sikh woman Preacher or a Sikh missionary. I was shocked by his claim and so shocked was the sangat there and even normally mild Sikhs like the most famous Sikh lawyer of Canada – Sardar T. Sher Singh – had to speak up. He said that it was not wise or it was too early to draw conclusions from what the press reports say because even today in this age of knowledge, press does not always cover facts accurately, then how can we expect the press two hundreds years ago to be accurate. The whole audience totally applauded Sardar T. Sher Singh jee’s statement and it seemed that Parmjit Singh too had to reluctantly agree with him.

So ended his presentation. By Guru Sahib’s kirpa, no parchaar of Sanatanism was done in the conference because of the stiff opposition he faced in the audience that interrupted him at any slight deviation from Gurmat.

After the lecture we all came out and Parmjit Singh too came out. He and I said fateh to each other and shook hands. He expressed his desire to have a discussion with me and I readily agreed. While the third lecture started, I came out to stretch my legs and do some paath, that I saw Parmjit Sing there. He was sitting in the sitting area outside and I too sat beside him on a couch. We started having discussion.

I first asked him that why do UK Nihungs put down AKJ Singhs in UK. He tried to avoid this question saying that he did not represent the UK Nihungs but I persisted. I said that I wanted to know why they had to put other organisations down to forward their agenda. He could not answer this question and asked me to name some UK AKJ Singhs who had told me this. I said it was not about persons but about ideology.

I asked him why the UK Nihungs put down Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh jee and accuse him of being a British Agent? He could not answer this question. I then went on saying that at one time pretty much whole of Bhai Sahib’s jatha was in jail and he himself stayed in jail for 16 years. Then how could he have been a British stooge. He had no answer to this.

I then asked him, about how he was preaching in the lecture that Sikhs should be tolerant to all .e.g Udasis and Nirmalay but how come UK Nihungs were not tolerant to AKJ then? I said to him, "you can hug ganjay (skinhead) Udaasee saadhoos but repulse AKJ Singhs who are in baana like you guys." He could not give any satisfactory answer to this.

As we were talking there were two more Singhs with me – Baldeep Singh and Amritpal Singh. As I had finished discussing the above with him, some more Singhs came from inside. One of the Singhs, who was upset at his lecture, came directly to him and said, “You are a direct agent of Indian Governmentâ€. Hearing this, Parmjit Singh got upset and uttered an obscenity. The Singhs there respected us and restrained themselves and did not get physical with Parmjit Singh. Otherwise, they would have severely thrashed him for his stupidity.

I pacified them and then asked Parmjit Singh, if he had read the first salok of 21st pauri of Siri Asa kee Vaar. I explained how Guru Sahib tells us that one who utters obscenities is against Gurmat. I told him to apologise to the Singhs. He refused to do it first but then after few minutes apologised to those Singhs.

I asked Parmjit Singh, if it is okay for an amritdhari Singh to consume liquor. His answer filled not only me but everyone else there with total surprise. He responded saying that in dire circumstances consuming liquor is okay. My next question was what kind of circumstances are those in which a gursikh is allowed to drink liquor. He said that when Singhs used to go to battle or war, they used to drink liquor. He said that liquor helps one in battles. I asked him what was the position of Gurbani and Naam then? I asked him if Baba Deep Singh jee could have consumed liquor. He had no answer. Then I asked him if Gurbani allows for exceptions in drinking liquor. No answer at all.

The worse claim that he made was his support for polygamy. I asked him if a Singh can have sex with a person who is not his wife. To this he again said that in some circumstances, it is allowed. There were many Singhs who were present there who heard him say this and the liquor thing.

Overall, it was a satisfactory meeting with him and I ended this conversation with him requesting him to firstly, review his beliefs that do not seem to be on Gurmat e.g. liquor, drugs, meat and fornication / adultery. Secondly, I asked him to cut the spiteful and venomous attitude they have for AKJ. Whether he will heed to these requests, time will judge that.

What I have written is based on honesty and if Parmjit Singh wants to clarify any point, he is more than welcome to post here."

[challenge_everything]

why do people generalise as if all the UK nihang singhs think in one line - they do not all think one way.

[gupy]

Sounds like Parmjit handled it pretty well then...

So Liono what Besharam are u on about ???

[Liono]

read the post again and u will see what Behsharam I am on about

[gupy]

i've read it...

the guys just posting an opinion, whats the problem???

[Liono]

Sorry if you cannot see the Behsharam, then cant help you understand, the post is self explanatory.

[Navi_Kaur]

'Liono' Paji to me it seems as though you are a little narrow minded and set in one way of thinking and therefore not open to anyone else's views or opinions.

You have taken Parmjit Singh's words not ony out of context but way out of proportion. Parmjit Singh said that alchol was consumed before going into battle, not that the Singhs got pissed. Before challenging establishd Sikh historians I suggest you read more Bani. In specific verses in Dasam Guru Granth, Guru Gobind Singh Ji discusses different uses of alcohol.

People are so quick to generalise sikhi an almost put it in a box. Sikhi is such a beautiful thing, Guru Nanak Dev Ji's word was universal! - not in a box.

Parmjit Singh is not a besharam, we should try and learn from the mass knowledge that he has, whether we accept it or not!

Don't get upset because someone doesn't agree with you, you don't have to agree but try and accept an most importantly respect that we are all children of that same AKAAAL PURAKH. And that we all take seperate paths to get back to Father!

Vaheguru..

Vaheguru..

Vaheguru..

[Guest]

I like to share one thing which occured in this event.

After the lecture was over... this katar panthi (possibly babar khalsa/terrorist wing)..he was not from tapoban but he was with tapoban singhs... came up to my freind who wasn't even from england nor he was a nihang nor he shared same views as nihang crew... he started cussing him and threaten him with his life.

These types of fanatics should go back to where they belong ( afghanistan and join their taliban crew).. in civilized country such as Canada.. there is no such place for these kinda people who judge people according to their phsyical appearance.

That's all i gotta add in this thread.

[Liono]

:shock: Lol ..... I am sure there are males pretending to be females on this forum ....

there has been a good point made on another forum:

When the Nangs first started doing their parchar in uk in 99, they would say it's okay to eat maas in war times, the same Nangs now eat maas as part of their daily food intake. now they are saying one can have sharab in times of war, i wonder if 4 yrs down the line ,they will all be in the pub everynight?

the main qestion is "What defines times of war"

Okay the spirtual war is ongoing for everyone in controlling their mind and i can't see how maas or sharab can help in this

The pyhsical war, well as far as i know the last pyhiscal war the panth fought was 84 and after and i am not gonna go into detail on that in this post

i understood the point that Singhs always need to be mentally and pysically prepared for war as the time could come anytime,

but i personally think (i could be worng) that because it has been part of the khalsa martial traditonal to be ready for war we have to be prepared and to be prepared you need a common enemy

BUT because at present (some could argue RSS) there is no visible enemy, the nangs need an enemy to encourage others to join 'their mighty fauj' and have made other Singhs their enemy, AS their whole admin cut-ness started around their blatent hatred of the AKJ

What's the point of preparing for jang, if all your energies go on attacking (verbally) other Singhs.

also there is a strong rumour in UK that at wedding parties and birthdays of Nangs, sharab as been consumed,

i put strong rumour because i wasn't actually there to witness this with my own eyes so don't want to put paap on my head, but if these rumours are true then is getting p~~~~~ at your son's wedding preparing for jang?

anyway its' a shame, cus i know Singhs what rather be busy doign bhagti than waste time on pettiness caused by the behaviour of Nangs in Uk

chello all in Guru'jis hukam

Akaal

[Malwe Da Sher]

there is absolutely no point to this thread... no point what so ever. if liono wants to believe that the Singh Sabha movement is a God send thats fine, plz keep ur bulls*it extremeist views 2 urself.. no one wants to hear them and im sure no one cares. no one can be bothered argueing with u either... moorakha nal na loojeea moorakha nal na loojea. i sugest the admins lock this thread, its a waste of everyones time

[Sukhi]

sounds like propaganda to me.

the part about idols in darbar sahib... :?

forget it, i'm not even gonna bother with the stupidity of that argument.

:roll:

[challenge_everything]

lol - watch the tamasha of the world Waheguru

[drawrof]

I was there! (my name is harminder singh, and everyone knows me as harry).

Udasi's were brought forth, it was the same picture that you see on sarabloh.info (the bald looking one, black and white). Kulbir singh said "go back"...and paramjit singh did. At that point, kulbir singh said "how can they be sikhs, they brought idols into darbar sahib" (I am paraphrasing). Paramjit said "ah yes, but those were never IN darbar sahib. They were on the parkarma. He further discussed boongay (which were learning institutes and mentioned how at one point there were 92 around the parkarma. He further stated that not all boongay had idols.

Then paramjit singh gave a very interesting scenario. He said something to the degree of "idols were never allowed within darbar sahib, but those people who would come to the boongay because they DID idol worship, would hear kirtan and more times than not the kirtan would say "don't worship idols". He CLEARLY said "I don't worship idols and I am not advocating it". He was merely discussing how pictures indicate that sikhism was very inclusive and not only reserved under one narrow definition.

Now, before you think I'm a cronie who doesn't think for himself (which is what most people do anyway), I think it would be pertitent to actually do a study and see when the boongay FIRST started at darbar sahib, then, see whether baba sri chand had a boonga and whether they had statues as well.

if you have any other questions, feel free to ask me. I was there, and that in itself qualifies me to give a valid response.

ALSO, pictures and artifacts are used by historians when doing PHD's and other research in history. By discreditng questionable facts and focusing simply on ideology (which at MOST, should be there to shed light on the questionable facts when relating them) you are discrediting a whole methodology of research!

btw, I am writing here because of censorship issues elsewhere....if someone would like to take the liberty and send this to another forum, I don't mind as I have no desire to get caught in "sangat" games.

[challenge_everything]

good on drawrof

[Singh47]

Navi Kaur wrote:

"In specific verses in Dasam Guru Granth, Guru Gobind Singh Ji discusses different uses of alcohol."

Bhain Jee, can you please be gracious enough to point out a verse in which Dasam Pasha is telling his Sikhs that drinking alcohol is ok.

sorry for putting you on the spot but I had to ask this because a lot of young children visiting this site might get the wrong impression by the views expressed in your post that alcohol is some how allowed for a Sikh.

[Bruce Lung]

I have kept abreast of these developments but not participated in such a futile exercise that is being allowed to go on just so that you have a toy to play with and don't have anything to do with the real issues affecting you from day to day.

While you're working out who's who, and accusing everyone left right and centre of being agents of some evil power, you have to accept that 2 persons know the truth about your suspicions:

1) God

2) The Man (every email, phone call and discussion forum post passes through govt surveillance).

The Man knows, and he ain't telling. Why do you think that is?

Have fun

[Liono]

3) The people at the talk

[challenge_everything]

singh47 your back on the scene nice to see you

[vijaydeep Singh]

Gurfateh

Das want to put this thing first.

Das use to smoke and take alchahal when he was Hindu.

And after coming to Sikhism Das has stoped it.

But kindly see

Triya Charitar 266 in which princes is making fun of a Pandit who is telling her that she might had taken Alchohal so she is opposing caste and idol.

She says Alchohal drinker who have faith in Akal are better then Pandit like that Misar who was misguiding that young lady to idolatory and caste.

Well in past,Sura(alchoahal based drink) opium and Cannabis were not intoxicants but were part of Ayur Vedic type of medicine.

And still they are used.Das can say that Alchohal haters must not take Homeopthic Medicine as most have base in Alchohal so is the case with various Alpathic Medicine.

Das wants to say that as per Suraj Praksah Granth by Kavi Santokh Singh Ji,Guru after getting the wound 's stiches again open and evining before the morning of is going to Sachkhand did took a Vessal in which opium and Cannabis were there.

JS Talwara type people will jump the gun and say that Suraj Prakash is wrong.Guru can not do it.They think that Guru used Miracluous powers and they do personal worship of Guru while Guru say to worship Akal else go to hell if worship Guru(Vachitar Natak).

Any logical person will understand that last night or night before he had to go to Sachkhand he kept on doing preaching to Sikhs and gave Guruship to Guru Granth Sahib Ji.He also made Panth Guru visible.

Can you think that any normal human being who us is leaving the world and blood ozing out of belly can do all think without a pain killer?

Das is reapeting that if we have to fulfill the political aspiration then there should not any miracles to be propogated.In War all is justified.

SGPC Maryada forbids addiction to any drug.Thats has to be followed.But in medicine or while fighting real WAR meat or Wine or Cannabis could be used.At present time due to advancement of technology a person who does not use either of them caN also win the WAr but it was not so in those days.But Sikhs have no nation whith such advancement of Technology as yet.So they must be ready and open for all things.

There was a problem due to which idols were removed.Due to inciting of Arya Samajis Hindus wanted to have full control on our Darbar Sahib.They still have control on Bodh Gaya even till this day.In Karnal where they are majority due to idols being there in Gurudwara related to First Master,They forced a temple within the Gurudawara Manji Sahib,Anyone can go and see this.Perhaps still many Hindutva persons have an eye on 'wealth' of Charhwa made to Darbar Sahib.They could have introdueded alrerady.

Coming Back to liquer.Das is not encouraging liquer or drugs but what he want to say that in old time it could have been use.And in Army where we are away from wife and family and in exermem cold it is often used as life saver.Das anyway can live without it having pork fat.And in War Sikhs are never Radical like Jeehadis who consider opponent as an animal and do human rights abuse.Sikhs do not feel happy to kill a fellow Human being even if he/she is an enamy.Perhaps after taking alchohal or Cannabis they could have numbed thier mind to kill human .It is Bad to kill and to do compulsary Bad thing if some won take Bad thing then it could be natural.

But at prsent if anyone starts to take any intoxicant even at controled manner at start,there are 100% Chances for his/her becoming an addict.Best Example is Nihung Ajit Singh Ji of Pohla.So Say no to Drugs,Say no To Alchohal Say no to smoking as all are injurious to health and this is wriitan on them also(Same is not writtan on meat) But we must appriciate that there were some Sikhs in Past,who did not have spritual hight like Baba Deep Singh Ji,Those Sikhs were niether very brave,Yet they took something like opision and Bad to thier Helth to numb thier Brains so that they could kill some foe of Panth and let Panth survive and in that process they may even die.As due to drugs or Alchohal they did not feel pain or did not felt that they are dieing of Anemia as thier sense were overpowered by intoxicants and they kept on fighting till last drop of blood and when body was empty of blood they died of Anemia.Akal bless.

[karmjeet]

Kavi Santokh Singh has added some incorrect information so that he himself can take cannabis and opium . And some where in his granth , he has also wriiten in favor of eating meat so that he himself can eat it .

[Beast]

Kavi Santokh Singh has added some incorrect information so that he himself can take cannabis and opium . And some where in his granth , he has also wriiten in favor of eating meat so that he himself can eat it .

ah, the perfect analysis! No subjective slant whatsoever, and completely impartial with the truth!

ps Did he wipe his ass with his left hand or his right? (no reason for asking, it's just that u seem to know him so well)

[Malwe Da Sher]

Guru Nanak Dev Ji writes about how fools argue about flesh and how its been eaten since the beging of time, inface Guru Nanak Dev Ji says everything is flesh... i suppose Guru Nanak Dev Ji sed that as an excuse 2 eat meat.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes about Sukha, i suppose Guru Ji was just looking for an excuse also eh Karmjeet?

[drawrof]

if you flatulate in your kachera...and it leaves a brown spot, you have lost all sucham.......

I guess that is why 84,000 lives are so hard?

(gimme a break...this is the dogmatic thinking I am talking about. Don't do this, it is bad for you....well you will never know unless you do it. If it is a temporary crutch, then it becomes an advesary for god).

sikh is more about giving yourself completely...to waheguru and less about do's and don'ts!

[Liono]

Kavi Santokh Singh has added some incorrect information so that he himself can take cannabis and opium . And some where in his granth , he has also wriiten in favor of eating meat so that he himself can eat it .

Karmjeet dont waste your time.

With their thinking anything goes......... they seem to justify anything..... The thing is without Rehat, There is No Sikhi:

If His humble servant believes, and acts according to the Words of the Guru's Bani, then the Guru, in person, emancipates him. ||5||

Guru Raam Daas Ji, Raag Nat Naaraayan. 982

"Rehit Piari Mujh Ko, Sikh Piara Nahi"

The code of conduct is loving to me, the Sikh is not loving to me

Dhan Guru Gobind Singh Jee Maharaaj

Bhul Chuk Maaf Karna Jee

Of course you have to have love etc... but without fear of Vaheguru, how will you love Vaheguru ...... the pleasures of the world will most likely take over if you have no fear .

A Sikh is a Sikh because of his beliefs and code of conduct (Rehit)

If the Sikhs had no dos and donts (rehit), then they will be simply assimilate into society around them, or into hinduism for example. Thats the anything goes culture................ its a disgrace i have heard about so called Sikhs in Guru Bana (Religious clothing) Drinking Alcohol ........... What the f**k are these people doing.......they are disgracing Sikhi....... because that is not their roop ....but it is Sikhi Saroop ......... its a degrading attack on the saroop of the Khalsa from the inside.

[Hari]

Gurbani is my rahit maryada.