The Role of Avatar in Traditional Sikh Metaphsyics

[amardeep]

Thank you for sharing tsingh.

I have some questions on avatarvaad anyhow as this concept seem to confuse me.

You write that the Gurus are not born, but in Gurbani we can read that the Gurus were born:

Guru Nanak took birth:

ਧੰਨਿ ਧੰਨਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਧੰਨਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਕਯਥੁ ਭਲੌ ਜਗਿ ॥ Ḏẖan ḏẖan gur ḏẖan janam sakyath bẖalou jag.

Blessed, blessed, blessed and fruitful is the sublime birth of the Guru into the world.

Guru Arjan:

ਤੈ ਜਨਮਤ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪਛਾਣਿਓ ॥ Ŧai janmaṯ gurmaṯ barahm pacẖẖāṇi▫o.

From birth, He realized God through the Guru's Teachings.

The famous shabad regarding the birth of Guru Hargobind Maharaj:

ਦਸੀ ਮਾਸੀ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਬਾਲਕ ਜਨਮੁ ਲੀਆ Ḏasī māsī hukam bālak janam lī▫ā.

In the tenth month, by the Lord's Order, the baby has been born.

Dasam Granth:

Guru Nanak : ਜਨਮ ਸਮੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਕੋ ਆਯ Janam samai Naanak ko aayo

A long time passed like this till the birth of Nanak

Guru Gobind Singh:

ਤਬ ਮੈ ਜਗਤਿ ਜਨਮ ਧਰਿ ਆਯੋ ॥

For this reason the Lord sent me and I was born in this world.

2. If the creative aspect of God is the Sargun, and the unchanging aspect is nirgun, how does this fit in with logic? As soon as God starts to create, then he has become a Creator, hereby he is no longer "unchanging" as he has changed from the unchanging to the changed by taking a new attribute (creator). Would'n that dismiss the nirgun quality.

3. Were the Gurus Guru by birth or is it something they became later on after years of sewa and bhagti ? i wonder why Guru Angad had to work for so many years before given gurgaddi, while Guru Har Krishan Maharaj was given gurgaddi after a max of 2 years of sewa.

[Maha Kharag Singh]

Interesting points put forward by Bhai Tirath Singh Ji and Shaheediya Veerji about the Yug concept.

Just to add to the theory as to how such a concept can be translated in such a cynical "Richard Dawkins" society, in my humble opinion, just as faith, social structure, human conciousness etc has developed over time these four Yugs are periods of development of mankind's perception of faith and sociology.

Where as our primitive minds developed over time, newer technologies and philosophies dawned on us and when we made a significant break through development it had been labelled as the end or start of a Yug, e.g. the dark ages and then the renaissance.

One prime example which comes to mind is how religion/society developed, where we moved from privative sun/moon worship to paganism and then to polytheism and then to monotheism and now to atheism etc. etc. where all of these levels of faith drove individuals outlook on how society should be structured (e.g. hierarchies to divine rule etc.) and then lead to political movements such as crusades etc.

One may also perceive the days and nights of Brahma as the cycles of periods of intellectual development and periods of ignorance have flourished throughout world history e.g. the dark ages which lead to the flourishing of knowledge during the prosperous reign of the Roman empire where Greek phillosophy was born taking mankind out of the rut of polytheism and barbaric ritualism to make mankind think (virtue theory) which after the demise of the Roman empire plunged us back into the dark ages an age of great ignorance and religious dictatorship after which came the renaissance a revival of philosophy and knowledge that had been lost for hundreds to thousands of years, which then led to another dark period of religious dictatorship which was broken by the enlightenment or romanticism.

I know its a bit long winded but a pattern can be seen ignorance - knowledge - ignorance etc

Therefore in conclusion, maybe these concepts arent to be taken seriously but as poetic genious of our Satgurus and the ancient rishi munis who came up with these concepts.

[Guest]

mega bump...!

[SURYADEV]

Interesting points put forward by Bhai Tirath Singh Ji and Shaheediya Veerji about the Yug concept.

Just to add to the theory as to how such a concept can be translated in such a cynical "Richard Dawkins" society, in my humble opinion, just as faith, social structure, human conciousness etc has developed over time these four Yugs are periods of development of mankind's perception of faith and sociology.

Where as our primitive minds developed over time, newer technologies and philosophies dawned on us and when we made a significant break through development it had been labelled as the end or start of a Yug, e.g. the dark ages and then the renaissance.

One prime example which comes to mind is how religion/society developed, where we moved from privative sun/moon worship to paganism and then to polytheism and then to monotheism and now to atheism etc. etc. where all of these levels of faith drove individuals outlook on how society should be structured (e.g. hierarchies to divine rule etc.) and then lead to political movements such as crusades etc.

One may also perceive the days and nights of Brahma as the cycles of periods of intellectual development and periods of ignorance have flourished throughout world history e.g. the dark ages which lead to the flourishing of knowledge during the prosperous reign of the Roman empire where Greek phillosophy was born taking mankind out of the rut of polytheism and barbaric ritualism to make mankind think (virtue theory) which after the demise of the Roman empire plunged us back into the dark ages an age of great ignorance and religious dictatorship after which came the renaissance a revival of philosophy and knowledge that had been lost for hundreds to thousands of years, which then led to another dark period of religious dictatorship which was broken by the enlightenment or romanticism.

I know its a bit long winded but a pattern can be seen ignorance - knowledge - ignorance etc

Therefore in conclusion, maybe these concepts arent to be taken seriously but as poetic genious of our Satgurus and the ancient rishi munis who came up with these concepts.

The concept that human pyche, socitey, technology evolves to an improved state sits pretty with the 'modern scientific thimking'.

But, where does that leave the Indic theory, in particular the ISCKON version, that many yugs/millenia/epochs ago society was very advanced in its philosopical thought, technology, governance etc. And that over time the situation has gottwn worse.? THink: the advanced weaponary in Ramayana/Mahabharta, Atlantis' ideal society, methods of space/air travel that are mentioned in websites that quote some obscure ancient granth.

[Silence]

this is quite an interesting post, i wouldn't say there are only two approaches though, my own view and that of akj is something which is more of a mixture of the two ideas; sikhi is a revealed, new path, but guru nanak dev ji to guru granth sahib ji is in fact vaheguru himself

[Mithar]

Interesting thread. As usual great posts by Bhai TSingh Jee.

[Satgyan-pujari]

WJKK WJKF,mainly for T Singh, reading through this interesting topic a thought occured,Guru Gobind Sahib ji stated that anybody who called Him God would be cast into hell.To worship/visualize Nirgun Wahiguru we need Sargun Swarup,if Guru Maharaj instructs us to see His swarup as a servant of God how is this interpreted/understood in the Avatarhood teaching? I do not dispute the Avtar/Guru idea,just trying to clarify doubts.

[HarjasDevi]

When Hindu sampradaya such as Vaishnav is worshipping Bhagan Krishna, for example. They are worshipping Him in aspect as the Supreme and not any other demi-gods. Krishna is defined per Bhagavad-Gita, Uttara Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam as the Absolute which was in human form. So they are NOT worshipping the SARGUN physical body of Krishna which has DIED. They use Krishan NAAMs and titles, such as Keshava, Murali, Mukunda, Gopala, Govinda to represent QUALITIES of the ABSOLUTE which is defined as BOTH niragun and sargun and including having power over Mayajog.

When Guru Gobind Singh Ji says DON'T worship Him, is it as Guru Jyoti-Jyot which is merged with AKAAL? Or is it as physical body which is corruptible in time and subject to decay of which there are millions of Krishnas, and Raams and even millions of Guru Gobind Singhs (there were 10 physical forms of same Guru Nanak Jyot) on millions of worlds and throughout the ages?

But is it the same as Do not worship the Divine who is beyond form? The form is a servant of the Supreme Totality. The Supreme is not a servant of the phycial materiality. The mistake so often made is Singhs often equate Hindu Mat as being worship of idols, stones, false devte and not the REAL AKAAL. But Guru Ji was correcting WRONG practices of Hindu Mat from within Sruti truths of Vedantic and Puranic teaching. Only WE in arrogance look down at Hidu's as fake and superstitious and so avoid having to look in the mirror at our own ritualism and hypocrisies. But we are not fair to actually Hindu scriptures teaching on this subject of avtaray, otherwise these questions would not even arise.

"Only He Himself knows Himself." What does it mean? It means the Satguru is ONE with God. It does not mean the personality, the physicality is some fake pakhundi god. It means the Bramgyaan, the mukta is already no longer Himself, small ego, jeeva. He is supremely free soul. An Avatar is BORN already liberated and does not need a Satguru. An Avatar is BORN already having God-perception because He is JYOTI-JYOT, Light from the Divine Supreme nirgun which manifests in sansaar.

Do not do personality worship! But worship the Divine Reality. Let me ask you this, does Guru Gobind Singh Ji ANYWHERE state that He is NOT an avatar? And can you explain why Gurbani calls Guru Nanak Jyot as avatar for kaliyuga? So mistake is thinking Vaishnavs worship Krishna physical rotted and disappeared body. Mistake is thinking Vaishnavs worship the murthi and not what it is representing as spiritual presence that it represents, reminds, and pervades. And if this is all useless superstitious foolishness, how come Guru Ji gave Light of Truth that Ram NAAM and Krishan NAAM are considered as DIVINE NAAMs in Gurbani?

BECAUSE THOSE NAAMS REPRESENT MORE THAN A SARGUN BODY OR PERSONALITY BUT ACTUAL VEHICLES OF THE NIRGUN PRESENCE IN MATERIAL WORLD.

Obviously the Vaishnavs are worshipping the Divine Almighty who is described by identifiable characteristics of sarguna such as blue skin, long hair, flute player, with gopis in Vrindavaan? Because Gurbani records these exact same descriptions too as being the Parabrahm. And all of those descriptions have deeply symbolic meanings. For example Radha becomes jealous of the attention Lord Krishna is paying to His flute. So She asks what has the flute done to merit such intimate attention from the Divine Beloved. And Krishna shows Her the flute headlong, and states, "See? It is completely empty." So lesson of the flute is enchanting Divine who steals our hearts with beloved melody, reference to NAAM Jap sound current and sankirtana, and also the surrender of bhagti and bairaag for only He.

But we do not understand these beautiful concepts anymore. To us it is lumped together with superstition and worship of fake, mythological gods. We are sooo busy condemning Hindu Mat we take no time and intelligence to determine what is the actual teaching. All stemming from British Raj arrogance and ignorance of Hindu philosophy and translated to English run Christian missionary educational system which established in Panjab and trained the generation of reformers of Singh Sabha anti-sanatan version of Sikhism (Sikhism with an allergy to Desi culture, wisdom heritage and Hindu imagery).

A Satguru can only be an avatar because such a one cannot be an ordinary man who has the incredible power of salvation of so many millions of souls across lifetimes. A Guru there may be who is enlightened but not avatar, but a SATGURU of a YUGA MUST be an avatar and incapable of being less. Also such statement is reflecting incredible nirmata of Guru Ji. If you read Gurbani Guru Nanak is always describing Himself as das, dust of the feet of the saints.

The GOD HIMSELF is humble. Only we are not. We become offended, proud, murderous over our own honor. The hell one will suffer is due to the fact that physical forms are passing away. To lose Guru's physical body is to lose faith or put faith in the fleeting things, and that is hell/suffering. So put faith in the everlasting things which is the Guru Jyot, which is the Guru GOD, which is AJOONI and AKAAL. But it is wrong to think Guru Sahibaan as separate from Divinity, because then all bani would be just some men's opinions and not capable of carrying anybody across. But Gurbani is Shabad-Jyot, because "only He Himself can know Himself." And therefore Guruji is DIVINE PRESENCE that has manifested in human forms at time in history for our benefit to give us SHABAD kirtan, NAAM, and Guru kirpa, only way of obtaining mukti.

[Kaljug]

I'd like to hear what Tsingh has to say about this issue also.

K.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Kaljug

[Kaljug]

blah blah

Did you read the whole article in your sig or did you just pick the bits and pieces that fit into your Hinduphile Sikhi?

The author criticises Louis Fenech's writings. You know, the same idiot who argued that there was nothing great about Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji's martyrdom, that Sikhs became martyrs because they could not abide taunts and not because of the example of the Gurus, who equated Singh Sabha with Christian Crusaders and Islamic Jihadists.

Are you seriously accepting the Eurocentric and notoriously anti-Sikh Fenech as some authoritative and unbiased source as to what constitutes Sikhi and what the Singh Sabha was about?

At first I thought you a seriously misguided soul looking for truth. Now I find that you are just a fool.

K.

[HarjasDevi]

"Did you read the whole article in your sig or did you just pick the bits and pieces that fit into your Hinduphile Sikhi?

The author criticises Louis Fenech's writings. You know, the same idiot who argued that there was nothing great about Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji's martyrdom, that Sikhs became martyrs because they could not abide taunts and not because of the example of the Gurus, who equated Singh Sabha with Christian Crusaders and Islamic Jihadists.

Are you seriously accepting the Eurocentric and notoriously anti-Sikh Fenech as some authoritative and unbiased source as to what constitutes Sikhi and what the Singh Sabha was about?

At first I thought you a seriously misguided soul looking for truth. Now I find that you are just a fool."

I read the article. I have no side with either fenech or the criticisms. However the quote was a very good description of the Singh Sabha mentality. I have read Dr. Pashaura Singhs work also. I don't take any personal side with him or against his views. But I do think he raises some valid objections worthy of intelligent analysis and conversation.

Why are you always personally attacking my qualities and washing my karmas veer ji? What is wrong to love Hindu philosophy? So many on this forum express contempt and hatred for it, yet you say nothing. I try and express love and you degrade me personally and make sweeping generalizations that I am this, I represent that, starting with I am a Hindutva RSS hijra, as I recollect. Yes, wonderful spiritual jeevan you have veer ji. Your words are full of evil-minded low thoughts. The article was from a Singh Sabha perspective. I agreed some points and disagreed others, as is my right. I am NOT Fenech. Just as you are no Bhakta.

Tell me, in all this smearing of poo, exactly what is defensible in the Singh Sabha repression of sanatan granths and teaching of avtaray please? Since, that is the subject I was discussing and not my sig. Why are you completely incapable of discussing any of the legitimate points I wrote about having to do with avataray and Satguru and demean to such rude and hateful, spiteful personal attacks? Is this your idea of defending Sikhi by trashing someone like me on every post?

Edited February 4, 2010 by HarjasKaur

[Satgyan-pujari]

Bibi HarjasKaur thankyou for your prompt reply,i will try to read and comprehend the views represented. I value your reply and further ask others including bhai T Singh,to participate so as to further clarify and broaden understanding.Humble request to all, please could we just discuss subject and not vent personal insults and dislikes,detracting from the subject and importance of learning and progressing in sikhi.

[Guest]

Guys, please stick to the beautiful topic. Please take your personal issues over the pm. Avoid personal attacks.!!

[sivia_girl]

i don't care wht other says about guru nanak dev ji but in reality guru nanak dev ji was puran avtar of god !! well i don't want any discussion on my reply thanks

[SAadmin]

Sivia_girl ji, welcome to the forum..i hope you enjoy your stay...i totally agree with you i think most of us on here totally believe that Sri Guru nanak dev ji maharaj was puran avtar of Vahiguroo..!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Premi]

Well, I beg to differ

Sau saakhi says that guru gobind singh ji will return in 2012 and the special ones, and many know who they are, will be along with him!

Well, I beg to differ

Sau saakhi says that guru gobind singh ji will return in 2012 and the special ones, and many know who they are, will be along with him!

It is 2013 now, and the above did not happen. Can you show me the quote you got this from?

[Guest]

This is also very good explanation on avtars :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROGD1_Veo94&feature=youtu.be&utm_source=%22Escape+Into+Happiness%21%22++YOGI+MELA+2014+with+Amandeep+Singh&utm_campaign=Escape+Into+Happiness%21&utm_medium=email

[Singh123456777]

i don't care wht other says about guru nanak dev ji but in reality guru nanak dev ji was puran avtar of god !! well i don't want any discussion on my reply thanks

This

[Guest]

This is great post, bump

[drawrof]

Premi, Sorry just came back on this forum today. I shall look into this and find the quote. I haven't gone back to trace what I was responding to, but on seeing your questioning...I'd agree..nothing happened.

[amardeep]

Awesome post by Tsingh!

[Satgyan-pujari]

I have revisited this topic, and find it extremely helpful and thought provoking.

The question that tsingh provided in his post "Who is your Guru" is I agree a pivotal one, for anyone following Sikhism. Of the two positions regarding Guru Maharaj as "Sargun Wahiguru" as opposed to "Prophet/Perfect Saint", I personally fall into the first category. 

Of the Vaars as expounded by Bhai Gurdas Ji, which primarily confirm the traditional view of the continuity and manifestation of Guru Maharaj as Sargun swarup Wahiguru, I find Vaar1 pauries 23/24 challenging my understanding of this fact. These pauries appear to indicate that Guru Nanak was sent by God and was blessed to teach the Truth of Naam and Bhakti to suffering humanity, after intense devotion and tapasya. 

Could the learned members on this forum please put these pauries in the context of Guru being God himself, and remove any doubts to the traditional understanding 

Vaar1 p23 

ਸੁਣੀ ਪੁਕਾਰਿ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਜਗ ਮਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ

The benefactor Lord listened to the cries (of humanity) and sent Guru Nanak to this world

ਚਰਨ ਧੋਇ ਰਹਰਾਸਿ ਕਰਿ ਚਰਣਾਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਸਿਖਾਂ ਪੀਲਾਇਆ।

He washed His feet, eulogised God and got his Disciples drink the ambrosia of his feet.

 

Vaar1 p24

ਪਹਿਲਾ ਬਾਬੇ ਪਾਯਾ ਬਖਸੁ ਦਰਿ ਪਿਛੋ ਦੇ ਫਿਰਿ ਘਾਲਿ ਕਮਾਈ।

First of all Baba Nanak obtained the gate of the grace (of Lord) and then He underwent and earned the rigorous discipline( of heart and mind).

ਰੇਤੁ ਅਕੁ ਆਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਰੋੜਾ ਕੀ ਗੁਰ ਕਰੀ ਵਿਛਾਈ।

He fed himself with sand and swallow-wort and made stones his bedding i.e. he enjoyed poverty too.

ਭਾਰੀ ਕਰੀ ਤਪਸਿਆ ਵਡੇ ਭਾਗੁ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਬਣਿ ਆਈ।

He offered his full devotion and then he was fortunate to have proximity with God.

ਬਾਬਾ ਪੈਧਾ ਸਚਖੰਡਿ ਨਉ ਨਿਧਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਰੀਬੀ ਪਾਈ

Baba reached the region of truth wherefrom he received Nam, the storehouse of nine treasures and humility.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2015 by Satgyan-pujari

[paapiman]

On 11/11/2015, 1:37:22, Satgyan-pujari said:

Of the Vaars as expounded by Bhai Gurdas Ji, which primarily confirm the traditional view of the continuity and manifestation of Guru Maharaj as Sargun swarup Wahiguru, I find Vaar1 pauries 23/24 challenging my understanding of this fact. These pauries appear to indicate that Guru Nanak was sent by God and was blessed to teach the Truth of Naam and Bhakti to suffering humanity, after intense devotion and tapasya. 

Bro, if we read the other Vaaran of Bhai Saab jee, it becomes very clear that Satguru jee (First master) is the Almighty God himself.

Please have a look below:

 

Vaar 38 Pauri 20 Line 1 Praises of the six Gurus

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਹੈ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਸੋਈ।

Satiguru Naanak Dayu Hai Paramaysaru Soee.

सतिगुरु नानक देउ है परमेसरु सोई ।

Guru nanak is the true Guru and is God Himself.

 

Vaar 24 Pauri 25 Line 1 Description of the sixth Guru

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰਿ ਆਕਾਰ ਬਣਾਇਆ।

Nirankaar Naanak Dayu Nirankaari Aakaar Banaaiaa.

निरंकार नानक देउ निरंकारि आकार बणाइआ ।

The formless Lord assumed the form of Guru nanak Dev who is second all forms.

 

Vaar 13 Pauri 25 Line 1 Remembering the six Gurus

ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਪੂਰਣ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੇਉ।

Paarabrahamu Pooran Brahamu Gur Naanak Dayu.

पारब्रहमु पूरण ब्रहमु गुर नानक देउ ।

Guru nanak is perfect and transcendental Brahm.

 

Reference: http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/search_results/50

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

 

[Satgyan-pujari]

On 11 November 2015 at 18:37:22, Satgyan-pujari said:

 

 

Thanks Paapiman for the reply .

Again I reiterate that I am aware of the instances where Bhai Gurdas Ji speaks of Guru Maharaj as Sargun swarup Akal Purkh.

The question primarily is a reflection on pauries 23/24 of Vaar1, which  "appear" to contradict this. To remove doubts regarding the two stances , maybe someone could elaborate and put these pauries into context. I was hoping maybe tSingh or N30 could possibly share their views regarding these specific pauries mentioned.

Bhul Chuk maaf 

 

 

 

 

[Laal Singh]

On 2/9/2007 at 12:51 PM, Mekhane'ch Jannat said:

knowledge and experience what is the correct mixture must depend upon what is the aim. Following on from the previous analogy the lake could be our society and the evils and good contained within. So to cross the lake is to be an effective integrated member of society - the mesocosm. This is part of crossing, so to slightly change the analogy our society is the river we must flow with to get to the sea. you -microcosm river - mesocosm and sea - macrocosm each level is absorbed into the higher so the macrocosm absorbs all, is all (please anyone correct this if have got myself confused.) For me the aim is going along with the flow to take you to the sea. How much knowledge does an individual need to be able to go with the flow? This depends on the current of the river which is the society. If the current is strong it is difficult to go against it and it will take you without much effort to the sea the society is attuned to the flow then what knowledge is needed? But if the society is going aganist the flow and the flow is weak then a lot of knowledge is needed to realise that what you are doing is against the flow and you have to attune yourself to nature to let her take you to the sea. Herein is the danger of knowledge whereby without using this knowledge to change fundamentally, internally it makes you fight harder against the current. In other words sadh sangat negates the need for knowledge if the whole society was full of sadhu's then no knowledge is required, knowledge required for moksh rises proportionally with social degredation. Or the need for moksh comes about because of social degredation?

It looks like there is no end to levels, upward or downward. But we only progress upwards. This is an endless infinite universe, always expanding.