chatanga1

This is the early form of Gurmukhi Script without orthographic signs,and it was used in Goindwal Pothis.But before Compilation of Adi Granth by Guru Arjan Dev Ji,this script was reformed,updated and simplified by Bhai Gurdas on the advice of Guru Arjan Dev Ji.
In spite of development of Gurmukhi Script by Bhai Gurdas the Sikh Gurus from Guru Arjan Dev Ji to Guru Gobind Singh ji used the old script in their Nisans and Hukamnamas.Due to ignorance of this basic fact some Sikh writers propounded the theory that Mulmantra was not fully developed upto the time of Guru Arjan.

Tomorrow photographs of Nisans(Autographs) of Six Gurus from Guru Arjan to Guru Gobind Singh shall be uploaded to highlights this fact.
Gur-Fateh,

17.7.2017.

Basics of Sikhi is a very good place to learn about Sikhi but you can also get make a start here
at www.sikhbookclub.com. There are lots of great books to read for free there.
 
As a newcomer to learning about Sikh this book is a good starter. It's quite simple and by reading this you will know if you want to read more and deeper into this subject.
http://sikhbookclub.com/Book/Stories-From-Sikh-History-Book-1
 
 
 
You will find that with Sikhi as with many things in life, there are differing interpretations. Some are outright perverse, and sikhphilosophy forum counts as perverse in my opinion. Their motive is to water down Sikhi to fit in with their own beliefs and base it on scientific boundaries. it is not a good place to go to, to learn about Sikhi.
 

Basics of Sikhi is a very good place to learn about Sikhi but you can also get make a start here
at www.sikhbookclub.com. There are lots of great books to read for free there.
 
As a newcomer to learning about Sikh this book is a good starter. It's quite simple and by reading this you will know if you want to read more and deeper into this subject.
http://sikhbookclub.com/Book/Stories-From-Sikh-History-Book-1
 
 
 
You will find that with Sikhi as with many things in life, there are differing interpretations. Some are outright perverse, and sikhphilosophy forum counts as perverse in my opinion. Their motive is to water down Sikhi to fit in with their own beliefs and base it on scientific boundaries. it is not a good place to go to, to learn about Sikhi.
 

Here is  page from Sri Sarbloh. Have a look and discuss.
 

The SGPC are a the legitimate heirs, or even the Singh Sabha in their evolving form. If the SGPC made these changes, why did the Singh Sabhas all over the world accept them? They could have refused. But when the maryada was being discussed the main people involved were the Singh Sabha people.
 
 
 
By using sensical reasoning you wipeout half of Guru's history. How could Guru Nanak have moved the Ka'aba? Made reethe, meethe? How could Guru Sahib have taken brought the Moosan back to life after his head had been chopped off? Sensical?
 
 
True love leads to blind faith. Bhai Lehna loved Guru Nanak so much, that when in broad daylight Guru Sahib said, "It is night, go to sleep," Bhai Lehna never questioned or thought about Guru Sahib's adesh, but accepted it straightaway. Blind faith is a big measure of love for the Guru.

Here is  page from Sri Sarbloh. Have a look and discuss.
 

@amardeep
 
here it is. It is not from Jaap Sahib as I had written but from "Kabit Asfotak" (I think) .
 

 
 

Islamic sources on Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaj's stay at Mecca, Saudi Arabia.
Please listen to Gyani Hari Singh jee Randhawewale:
https://kam1825.podbean.com/e/islamic-sources-on-sri-guru-nanak-dev-ji-moving-the-kabba/
 
Bhul chuk maaf

There are some saying attirbuted to Guru Gobind Singh Ji, but nobody knew where they were written. I found a couple in Panth Parkash.

The border does make things difficult, but when the Sikhs had the chance to do anything, they didn't. Neither has the indian govt done anything to help. Can you beleive that there are 6 border villages in Pakistan that have historic gurdwaras in them, the most famous one "Gurdwara Kartarpur Sahib" antim place of Guru Nanak Dev ji, yet the Sikhs didn't do anything to hold those villages in 1947 when they could easily have done so, or even after in the 65 and 71 wars. The SGPC asked the indian go vt to arrange an exchange of land, measuring the same from Indian panjab for these 6 villages, but the indian govt was not interested. % of those gurdwaras have rotted to dust, as did Kartarpur Sahib uuntil the pakistan govt decided it could be renovated for Sikh tourism purposes.
 
The border hasn;t helped but neither have the Sikhs. Coming onto forced conversions of Pakistani Sikh girls, the Sikhs in indian Panjab need to be more aggressive and operate a quid pro quo policy.

Please listen to Gyani Inderjeet Singh jee Raqbewale providing information on Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee.
@chatanga1 - The original Granth was in Sanskirt.
Please start listening after 15:45 min:
http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Sant_Giani_Inderjeet_Singh_(Raqbe_wale)/Sri_Gurpartap_Sooraj_Parkash_Katha/05_Sri_Guru_Arjan_Dev_Ji/Giani.Inderjeet.Singh.(Raqbe.wale)--Sooraj.Parkash.Katha.-.Ras.02.Adhyai.34.-.Santokhsar.Vicho.Jogi.Nikliya.-.1994-07-23.mp3
 
Bhul chuk maaf

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Wahguru Ji Ki Fateh!
I love books on Indian martial arts, which are quite rare. The following is a list of about a dozen Indian martial arts books I have read. Please kindly post the titles and info of any books you know of. Thanks!
The Art of Gatka Fighting - Authored by K. S. Akali in 1936. More sports-like than martial arts-like. Just some soti techniques. Pentra seems incorrect.
Gatka: Book 1 - Dance of the Sword - Authored by Nanak Dev Singh Khalsa. First published in the mid 1980s.
Kalarippayat  - Authored by Dick Luijendijk. Published in 2008.
When the Body Becomes All Eyes: Paradigms, Discourses and Practices of Power in Kalarippayattu, a South Indian Martial Art - Authored by Philip Zarilli.                           
Shiv Dhanurveda - The art of ancient Indian archery (covers stances, grips, mantras, etc). Translated by into English by Dr. B Chakravarti in 2001.
Agni Purana - One of the 18 purans. Contains a dhanurveda section. 
Mallapurana - Manual on Indian wrestling. Read it in PDF format a little while back. I believe it was authored in the first half of the 20th century.
Lathi Shiksha - Illustrated quarterstaff manual. Possibly written by and for Hindu nationalists. Brought it back in 2000 from an old bookshop in India. Judging from the illustration style and the old fragile paper, possibly from the 1940s or 50s.
The Fighting Traditions And Fighting Arts Of The Traditional Sikh Warriors - The Beloved of Guru Gobind Singh Ji - The Akali Nihangs - Authored by Nidar Singh on Chatka Gatka.
Shastar vidya - Short booklet authored by Baba Gian Singh. Mostly warrior advice and martial bani from Dasam Granth. Some dagger techniques towards the end. Published by Budha Dal.
Shastra vidya: The Ancient Indian Martial Art of the Hindu Kshatriyas - Authored by Harjit Singh Sagoo, 2017. Illustrated and backed by textual evidence. Techniques of the bhindipala, asi, shakti, dhanush, gada, paash, etc. 
 
 
 

I hope it's better than the usual indian serial rubbish they put out.
Even the latest edition of Mahabharat was so annoying to watch because of its production.

Cheapskate! Go on, dig into those pockets.

And you think that writing cannot be manipulated? Did you know that in Sri gur partap Suraj Granth there is no mention of giving Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji getting the gur gaddi. Go ahead and try to find it but you won't. There is a Sri gur partap Suraj Granth in I think it's Nepal or someplace like that sant hari Singh randhawa vale knows where. In that Granth there is writings about giving gaadi to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Sri gur partaap Suraj Granth also didn't write about giving Amrit to bibi's so do you believe that as well?
Did you know that kavi Ji had 4 writers helping him with Sri gur partap Suraj Granth. They were supplied by the raja of I think was it nabha or patiala and those writers were corrupted by the British. In Sri gur partap Suraj Granth there are writings that write guru Ji had earings and did opium etc. These type of things were written by the 4 writers who were helping kavi Ji. So was the Raag Mala thing. I have gotten this info from true mahapurkhs who I met who have seen visions. 
Another thing that proves that kavi Ji does believe in Raag Mala. Kavi Ji was a student of head granthi of harimander sahib and jathedar of Damdami Taksal Gyani Sant Singh Ji. Now you tell me would gyani sant Singh teach kavi Ji Raag Mala is not gurbani and then teach his successor that it is gurbani? 
Regarding bhai randhir Singh I respect him cause in taksali books and I think it was in sant gyani kartar Singh Ji bhindranvale's book that said bhai sahib later on did start believing in Raag Mala like how bhai vir Singh later on started believing in Raag Mala. I know no akj will believe me but I trust the taksal and Sants who did write it.
I bet you won't believe anything I write here I'm just writing what I have learnt, read, and heard in my life.
 
 

https://www.pothiseva.net/single-post/2016/12/14/Damdama-Sahib-as-a-centre-for-the-creation-of-Gurmukhi-manuscripts
 
The following is an excerpt from Giani Balwant Singh Kothaguru's book on the Nirmala Sikhs under the section "Damdami Gurmukhi Likhaareeaa Di Taksal"
 
The Damdami School of Gurmukhi Calligraphy
(from Nirmal Panth Di Gaurav Gatha – Giani Balwant Singh Kotha Guru)
 
 

 
A late 19th century lithographed Guru Granth Sahib which has the script known as "Damdami", developed and perfected by the scribes of Damdama Sahib.

Guru Ki Kanshi  (Damdama Sahib, Bathinda) was the centre of Gurbani
Calligraphy alongside the teaching of Gurbani Santhia and Arth. Guru
Gobind Singh Ji started the tradition of ‘Likhaee’ in Guru Kanshi with
the writing of the Damdami Bir. Although the calligraphy of Gurmukhi
Granths took place at many other places aswell, the writing style of
Damdami Gurmukhi was known as uniquely elegant and clear. The training
to become a ‘Likhari’ i.e. a calligrapher was all given at Guru Ki
Kanshi. The techniques of writing each Gurmukhi letter individually in
the Damdami Script were expertly taught to the students. In particular
the way of looping and forming the letters in the Damdami style to
make them stand out from other Gurmukhi scripts. For example:

Oorra = in the shape of a peacock’s egg
Airraa = in shape of a horse’s bridle
Haaha = in the shape of a drum barrel
Kakkaa = in the shape of a pied wagtail’s eye
 
In this manner each letter was taught in a specific way. The letters
of the Damdami Script were so clear that readers had no difficulties
in identifying them due to their uniformity and structure. Kashmiri
paper was used by the Damdami calligraphers. To make the paper
useable, it was first burnished using the back of shells, which made
the paper smooth enough to write upon. To make sure that the writing
was in straight lines, a simple but clever method was used. A wooden
frame would be made with string running across it, the same width
apart as would be needed for lines to write on. On those frames 10-15
sheets would be placed and weight would be applied on top.  Due to the
weight, an impression of the lines would form onto the paper.

The Damdami calligraphers also had methods to deal with ink going
through pages, or spelling mistakes.  A fixed amount of crushed shells
and glue were mixed with water and placed in a ‘sippi’ for some time.
Once ready this would
be spread over the spelling mistake (similar to modern Tipp-ex). After
this was dry, it was possible to write over the mistake. Correction
was also made utilizing turmeric, which formed a yellow correction
mixture.

Ink was prepared in the Guru Ki Kanshi itself rather then brought from
outside. Red Inks were also used made using mercuric
sulphide/cinnabar. In Granths such as Dasam Granth Sahib, where they
were used for titles, numbers, endings of chapters etc., however this
was not used in Adi Guru Granth Sahib manuscripts.
 
The skill of binding Sri Guru Granth Sahib volumes was taught at Guru
Ki Kanshi. Due to Guru Granth Sahib being a large volume, to make sure
Angs did not fall out of the Saroop, endbands were sewn into the
Saroop to make the binding extra strong. Alongside this Chola Sahibs
were also made to measure, which helped preserve the binding and give
the Granth a long life. Ramala Sahibs were sewn to size and hand made
stitching for decoration was also done here.

Chaur Sahibs made from peacock feathers were a speciality of Guru Ki
Kanshi. Sant Isher Singh ‘Munishar’ of Bunga Mastuana, (born at
village BhaiRupa, a great scholar of Vedanta) was a famed for his
skill of crafting these Chaur Sahibs which he donated to each Gurdwara
in the vicinity of Damdama Sahib.

It was astonishing seeing the range of activities not only taking
place at Guru Kanshi, but also being taught. All activities such as
teaching the manner of writing the Damdami script, making ink, making
‘hartaal’ (a substance with similar use to tipex), making Chaur Sahib,
preparing, sizing and burnishing paper, making Rumala Sahibs,
preparing the binding of Saroops, were of a higher level of quality
then the top education centres of the time such as Vikramshila,
Takshila, Varanasi etc.

The Nirmala saints played an integral role in keeping Gurbani
calligraphy alive. In those times where the Saints taught the
pronunciation and exegesis of Scripture, they taught calligraphy
alongside. Those who created original works were known as ‘Lekhak’ and
those who made copies of these original works were known as ‘Likaris’.
These likharis were great Saints, who were respected far and wide for
their skill.
 
Some famous Likharis:
 
1) Tapo-Nidhi Swami Bhagat Singh wrote 5 Saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
2) Sant Wadhawa Singh of Lehra Khana (Bathinda) wrote 5 Saroops of Sri
Guru Granth Sahib. Sant Wadhawa Singh Ji used to write make Gutkas of
Jap Ji, Sukhmani and other Banis and hand them out to the
congregation.
3) Sant Mahant Hira Singh of Likhari Bunga (Damdama Sahib) was famed
for his clear and beautiful calligraphy. When the process of printing
Gurbani first started, out of all the different scripts (i.e. Damdami,
Kashmiri, Amritsari), the Damdami script was chosen, and Sant Hira
Singh’s written letters were used to base their printing on.
4) Sant Haiba Singh Gurusar Batindha
5) Sant Dal Singh Bhucho Kala
6) Sant Narain Singh Giani Sekhwa Wale
7) Mahant Vir Singh Daudhar
8) Mahant Gurbakash Singh of Bunga Likharia Damdama Sahib
9) Pandit Shyam Singh Mangwal
10) Sant Bala Singh Khadur Sahib
11) Pandit Nanu Singh
12) Mahant Jai Singh Dera Sada Singh
13) Sant Bhoop Singh
14) Sant Naudh Singh BhaiRupa
15) Mahant Mahna Singh BhaiRupa
16) Sant Aghar Singh Tutomazara
17) Mahant Pratap Singh Dera Chaunk BabaSahib Amritsar
18) Sant Bhagwan Singh Giani Dera Manuke
 

The Guru was both a patron and a writer himself. Nothing unusual about this though, - many rulers likewise wrote their own litterature as well as being patrons of others. See the writings of Dara Shikoh for instance who translated much and also paid others to translate.
Im not sure why it would be easy for others to mistake it as Maharajs writings, if he only commisioned it. Though Maharaja Ranjit Singh patroned the Golden Temple, no one actually mistook it as him being the actual constructor and builder.
Rules and guidelines are standardized in poetry (of whatever language) and I think (not sure) that different words are used depending on where in the text they are used. I've only seen the word krit being used in the beginning of a book, - never along the pen name of the poet (where you have kavi in your example). I'll have to check up on how it is used in braj basha. Lekhak, kavi, krit and sometimes even without any title in front of the pen name - i think they were all used but there is probably a logic to where and when they are used.
 
So I take it we both agree that the above verses deal with the number of scribes, and not with the number of authors nor the number of pen names (as manglacharan says).
But how do you know he is ignoring it? The fact that Bhai Sahib quotes extensively from different parts of the Dasam Granth surely implies that he had read and studied large parts of the Dasam Granth and therefore came across the Ram, Shyam and Kaal pen names. Yet he still wrote "Saakh Mahala 10" in the headings. In the previous chapters he writes the raag and the mahala (ie. Raag Gauri Mahala 5). There is no change, only continuity. So how do you know he is ignoring them?
Difficult - yes. Impossible - no.
Your examples with the other Gurus are fine but I dont think we can assume that the reason 6th and 7th patshah did'n compose any bani was due to them being busy being kings. I think there were greater things at play.
We know from history that the Guru from an early age had a thorough education in the art of war and poetry as well as learning the languages of Punjabi, Persian, Sanskrit, Hindi and Braj Basha. This also included a thorough study of the litterature of these languages (especially Persian and Sanskrit).
The largest parts of the Dasam Granth are the Charitro Pakhyan, Bachitar Natak and Chaubis Avatar. Combined, these probably make up some 80% of the entire Granth. However, going by the internal datings, these were also composed over a period of 10-12 years. Some of the larger chapters of the Chaubis avatar were composed as early as the late 1680s and then completed some 10 years later. Likewise the Charitro Pakhyan was composed in 1696 while the Bachitar Natak was probably completed soon thereafter. Over a period of 10-12 years it is not impossible to compose some 800 pages of bani.
When I was doing my research on the kavi darbar last year I noticed how some years seem to have been more productive than others. The period 1695-1698 seem to have been a very active period in the Anandpur Darbar where large chapters of the Mahabharat were completed. Translating the Mahabharat is a massive undertaking in itself! Likewise, there were no major battles in the years 1694-1698. This gave the Guru and his poets the time needed to engage in their arts and devote "full time". 
Suraj Prakash is 8-9 times the size of the Dasam Granth and that was composed over the same period of time (10-12 years). So it is not impossible. Likewise with the music. Being a calligrapher could have developed along learning prosody.
The sakhi says the SIkhs came to the Guru and asked for joining the Granths together. And then the answer was given. It does'nt say the SIkhs were told no, and then the same Sikhs came and asked again. Since they were never officially merged together it means the Sikhs understood to keep them seperate (apart from that one saroop in delhi of Bhai Mani Singh)
I dont think its fair to see they did'n know the content of the Granths. There is nothing wrong in saying that the Dasam Granth has a much greater focus on Avatar lila than the Guru Granth Sahib considering the wide scope of the Chaubis Avatar as well as the 3 Chandi banis and the other Mahabharat translations. Sure, its not all about avatar lila, but even the Anti-Dasam Granthis say that Dasam Granth is a "hindu scripture" due to the Chaubis Avatar. It is an exaguration. I would'n say Bhai Sahib did'n know what it was about since he obviosly studied it as is evidenced by his quoting of it.
Your theories are interesting - try and look more into them in light of what puratan ithias says and see if you can find any evidence to back them up. Would be interesting to see.
Its good to imagine - the problem however is that we are not talking about a random devout sikh who came to the court once a year during Vaisakhi. We are talking about Bhai Mani Singh who tradition records as a court poet himself, a scribe, resident in Anandpur as well as a darbari. He spent years and years with the Guru. It is very unlikely that he would take large granths such as Bachitar Natak and Charitro Pakhyan and say they were guru krit just because people say so , if he had never stumbled across them during his residence in Anandpur. Imagine if I come to you 10 years after your best friend has passed away and say "here is a 800 page granth that your friend was actually working on. You might not know and you've probably never seen it before.. but true story".. Thats very unlikely no?

The earliest reference to "Vada Granth" i've come across is in a 1692 saroop of Guru Granth Sahib.. I dont know if it was scribed in Anandpur or else where. Interesting though that it uses the same terminology as Bhai Kesar Singh Chibbar some 70 years later. Would be interesting to see if there is any reference to the Dasam Granth being called Chota Granth already in the 1690s.
To be honest i've never really looked into the arguments used for the different pen names. What do Pro-Dasam Granthi scholars give as reasoning?
Can you provide some examples of what you consider to be differences in belief systems?
I can't as I dont know more than it.. It was just a theory and conjecture. It's something to look further into *wink wink you do it* ;)
Take it from scracth, start from A and end with Z so others can also read along and learn from your research.
 

I have recently watched these two videos by Gurpreet Singh California. He has done an excellent job of presenting Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth in it's correct context and looking at how it is misrepresented. A must watch to increase your gyan about this holy Granth:
 
 

GHANI KHAN and his brother Nabi Khan, Pathan horse dealers of Machhivara in present day Ludhiana district of the Punjab, were admirers of Guru Gobind Singh whom they had visited at Anandpur and to whom they had sold many good animals. When they learnt that, travelling in a lonely state after the battle of Chamkaur (1705), the Guru had come to Machhivara, they at once turned out to meet him and offered their services. They provided him with a blue coloured dress and carried him out of Machhivara in a palanquin disguised as a Muslim divine. They declared him to be Uchch da Pir, the holy man of Uchch, an old seat of Muslim saints in south-west Punjab.
They escorted him thus up to Hehrari, a village near Raikot in Ludhiana district, where a group of Sikhs relieved them. The Guru dismissed Ghani Khan and Nabi Khan with his blessings and a hukamnama meant to be a letter of commendation which was reverently preserved by their descendants. The family migrated to Pakistan in 1947. Their house in Machhivara is now a gurudwara known as Gurdwara Uchch da Pir.
References : Sikh Encylopaedia
1. Kuir Singh, Gurbilas Patshahi 10. Patiala, 1968
2. Padam, Piara Singh, and Giani Garja Singh, eds. Guru klan Sakhian. Patiala, 1986
3. Macauliffe, Max Arthur, The. Sikh Religion. Oxford, 1909

Below:
Zahoor Ahmed Khan, the descendant of Ghani Khan and Nabhi Khan who once assisted Guru Gobind Singh Ji in escaping the Mughal forces, here shows a hukamnana bestowed upon his ancestors by Guru Sahib Ji.
 

 
 

This is from an old  saroop of Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib on PDL. Charitar 325 is not listed in this granth. On my phone app, the story of the "Sultan" is listed as 326, whereas Bindra has listed it as 325.
 
http://www.panjabdigilib.org/webuser/searches/displayPageContent.jsp?ID=157&page=15&CategoryID=3&pagetype=0&Searched=Dasam
 

This saroop lists Charitar 325 as Gupt.

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio
 
go to Gyani Sher Singh folder. Gyani Ji has started katha of Sri Sarbloh.

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio
 
go to Gyani Sher Singh folder. Gyani Ji has started katha of Sri Sarbloh.

@chatanga1 If you really interested in Mahabharata then please read it from ancient sources rather than relying on Dramatised presentation of BR Chopra serial. many experts believe that Mahabharata of BR 's version was full of flaws 
http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/
 
You can start it from here

The 2nd character I want to talk about is Draupadi. Her actions in this story seems to have been minimalised in the lead-up to the game of dice, but she played a very big part in the escalation of events. Draupadi was born as a by-product from fire. The actual purpose of the "fire-birth" was for her brother Dhristdhum, who's purpose in life was to avenge his father at the hands of Dron Acharya. Her character represents fire in it's very negative aspect, very wild and unforgiving to those it envelops, not discriminating between friend and foe. Her words have great harshness about them and she does not desist from even insulting her husbands from time to time.
 
After the Kingdoim was divided, the pandavs went to Indaprasth and built a magnifcent palace there. Inviting the Kauravs over to see the palace, Duroyodhan falls into a pool of water thinking it to be an illusion. Draupadi is watching and ;laughs at him after he falls in and exclaims "The blind man's son is blind as well." Duroyodhan is thrice-humiliated, by falling in but then hearing her laugh and further insult him and his father.The King's blindness was a constant source of torment, to both father and son.
 
After this Yudhistra rebukes Draupadi (mildly) and says that she should not have said those words. Who knows what the consequences could be? But Yudhistra here failed in his own duty to seek recompense for Durodhyan and Dhrithrasthr. But there he let the matter lie.
 
This is in effect letting her off the hook. Draupadi should have been sent to both King and son to apologise, firstly as the kauravs were guests and it is very unethical to insult a guest. Second, the King was more deserving of her respect, and also moreso, because he was a father-figure to the Pandavs and should have been to her as well. Who would call their own father blind? Thirdly Duroyodhan is like a younger brother to her as well. But no more is said of this, until the dice game, where Duroyodhan reminds her of her words.
 
After her humiliation, Draupadi never lets up an opportunity to humiliate her husbands and especially Yudhishtra with her harsh words, and by keeping her hair open to torment the Pandavs constantly about her humiliation. Yet she never once repents for humiliating Duroyodhan and the King.