Lucky

A very good lecture from the camp worth listening to. Really liked the simple explanation of Ik Ong Kar.

Savinderpal,

This whole issue has been discussed many times when they first started up. You can find many threads on sikhsangat about him.

But to put it simply they have a 1 year naam abhyaas course where you probably stay there and do a serious about amount of daily naam abhyaas under their guidance. At the end they give you a certificate from their institution called Brahm Gyan University stating you completed the 1 year naam abhyaas course. I don't believe it states you are now officially a "Brahmgiani", which was how people started interpreting it. Think there is also a 4 year course.

Yes they have certainly raised the bar in who can partake in Amrit. They believe one should have a certain level of kamiyee and reached a certain avasta before you should present yourself to take amrit. I'm not 100% sure but I think as a minimum you should have reached the stage of anhad shabad. Even after taking the amrit I think you have to commit to spending another year doing further strong naam abhyaas as some other jugties are taught in the amrit sanchar.

They certainly believe in quality not quantity.

Think the aim is to develop pacharaks with practical kamyeee as well as knowing teachings of Guru Maharaj.

Bhai Ji
you have been given the wrong information about Bhai Sewa Singh Tarmala Ji

First of all the video you posted is of gurchanran singh Jeon wale he is a missionary you can find many of his video where he does ninda of all sants like bhai randhir singh akj, baba atar singh ji mastuana sahib, baba isher singh rara sahib. and baba nand singh nanaksar wale.

He says nam simran is a waste of time. Also, he recently organized a conference where they passed a metta which said all of dasam granth is not of Guru Gobind Singh Ji, thats including jaap sahib, chaupai sahib ardas and that these banis should not be read.
So be very careful about what he says.


About bhai sewa singh giving bhramgiani certificate. This is a controversy raised by missionary like gurcharan singh, ghagga sarabjit singh dunda, dilgeer, and thailand wale.
Bhai sewa singh ji in front of many jathebinds cleared this issue, you can find the video on youtube. The reason its called bhramgian university is because they teach from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which is brahim gyan. The certificate they give is to the people who have complete the 1 or 4 year course, its not a degree that says your a brahmgiani.

Bhai ji i hope this has cleared your doubts you can find many videos of bhai sewa singh ji on youtube

I have had similar experience at sikhphilosophy.net. Most of the regulars over there are not worried about bhagti at all. They are not concerned with the spiritual world at all. In fact as you said most of them are atheist. They seek to interpret Sikhism according to their own modern ways and dismiss everything that is deep or mystical. They have different interpretations about what Sikhi is and none of it includes naam jaap or even baani jaap. For them baani is just meant to be understood. If you point out that bani incessantly tells us recite naam and baani they don't care. Most of the time they make jokes of these things.

Welcome ChazS1ngh !

You are right, it really pushes your inner ego to the limits at times.
I have to constantly remind myself that it is ALL him and his kirpa.

All I ever pray and ask for is that LOVE keep getting enshrined and stronger. I beg that I don't accidentally let a veil come over that connection.
We all know just how easy that is in the world we live in.

I hope you inspire and get inspired on this forum.
Many members have influenced and motivated each other in many aspects. I think there is material and information on here that you will not find anywhere else or that no person, institution or gurudwara would ever have told you.
Most of it is confirmed and acknowledged in some sort of practical approach or experience, and I don't know anywhere else where these kind of contributions exist.

Was listening to Giani/Bhai Paramjit Singh Ji Khalsa (Anandpur Sahib Wale) live on SikhChannel last night and must say I was really impressed with this guy's katha. His topic was naam simran. I will record it and put it up because it was a very inspiring Katha. This guy is very outspoken and was not afraid to tell the sangat off on numerous occasions.

There was one point he made which really caught my attention when he was asking the sangat to jap. Someone sitting in the sangat decided to accelerate their jaap and became engrossed in their own mast like you see on some occasions. Bhai Sahib stopped the jaap and made a very important point. He said not to jap so fast like that because your surti will not be able to latch on and keep up. He said once someone else was doing the jaap in this fashion so he asked him what stage he had achieved in the time he had been doing sirman. The person replied he hadn't achieved anything to date. Bhai Sahib gave the analogy of peddling on bike very fast but the chain is broken so in fact your not going anywhere. He said its the same with simran when done in that fashion. Your japping so fast that your speech has gone off in its own direction and your mind/surti was not focused and was left behind to do it's own thing. That is why nothing is being achieved.

Key point : Keep the simran slow so that the surti can hear each recitation clearly and stay latched on for the ride.

It's all in stages depending on each soul development from the little I understand.
No, you can't meet Guruji this way at your own will.
His darshan are all by his gurprashad, kirpa and nadar.

It's all in stages depending on each soul development from the little I understand.
No, you can't meet Guruji this way at your own will.
His darshan are all by his gurprashad, kirpa and nadar.

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It's all in stages depending on each soul development from the little I understand.
No, you can't meet Guruji this way at your own will.
His darshan are all by his gurprashad, kirpa and nadar.

I know how you feel bro. I have been in a state of shock too. I dont think I will get over it. I have not shown it to my family, and dont plan to do so. Because I dont want them to go through the same feelings.

I dont know him personally but just listening to his katha over the past 10 years I had developed great respect for him. I didnt put him on a pedestal or worship him but still ...

I didnt even do my nitnem for 1-2 days, lost interest in Bhagti for a day, but had to bring myself up again. If such great leaders can get entangled in such things what chance do I stand ? I can never get there.

I mean we should def. focus on the positives but when one person reaches such a responsible position , just his name being mentioned in something can cause ripples i mind.

Anyways, as Neo mentioned, over all it truly is His Khel , we are not even an atom in this universe.

Only with Guru's grace can one cross this bhavsagar.

Dhan are the Mahapurakhs who destroyed these 5 thieves within them and in those who came in touch with them.!!!

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Totally agree with what your saying bro. The problem is that we all want shortcuts to get the job done whilst putting in minimum effort ourselves. Gurbani places so much emphasis on Sants, Sadhus, Saadh-Sangat. We are conditioned to get close, but when you get too close you begin to see some holes or things we don't understand. Then we are told it's all about following bachan's without any question otherwise you don't get that blessing.

jae ko bachan kamaavai santhan kaa so gur parasaadhee thareeai ||
One who practices the Teachings of the Saints, by Guru's Grace, is carried across.

I was listening to some of the kathas at Sant Baba Isher Singh ji's (Rare Wale) Salana Barsi this weekend in West London and one of the Sants narrated a incident from Babaj ji's life. He said there was a baba ji who's name I cannot remember who used to manage the langar seva at Rara Sahib Gurdwara. One day he came to Baba ji and handed over the keys to Baba ji and said I'm leaving and going to become gristi and get married. Baba ji asked what the problem was? This mahapursh replied that many people come to the langar and my vikars/thoughts/desires are troubling me too much. Rather any kind of incident occurring and I bring this place into disrepute it is better I leave now. Baba ji called him over and placed his hand on his head for a few minutes and then asked him how he was feeling? The mahapursh replied that his mind had been totally cleaned and there were no more disturbing thoughts. Baba ji gave him back the keys and said you asked for this seva from dargah so now go back and complete the job.

Boom job done! If only it was that easy for the rest of us.

i have been quite disturbed since hearing this video, inside i m hoping tht this turns out to be false.

the shabad of kabir ji comes to mind when he says that the boat is still in the ocean who knows what will happen next.

this is ghor kalyug today, gone are the days when there were great mahapurakhs.

Veer,

I agree with your approach and let the kids decide their own path.

I aplogise if I have misunderstood anything.

I think so, but Harsharan veer will have to confirm.

I interpreted the above as, not trying to force religion on to them but letting them understand steadily and giving them room to digest.
Kids don't want blind faith and rituals just for display, that's why you have to approach with calmness, steadiness to let them understand in time, if you go too fast, too soon, then you are likely to scare them away.

For eg..... a kid will question why are we bowing to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and how is that different to bowing to some other scripture ?
You could answer the taliban way and say something like '' just do it and don't ask questions! "
OR you could slowly begin to explain what guru manyo granth is,..........bowing in reverence.........how Guru Arjan dev ji slept on the floor whilst the pothis and bani he was compiling were on the bed.........all these take time and understanding to digest, and parents have to be patient, calm and friendly in their approach.

I don't know about any of you, but when I first came across ''Pythagoras'' whilst being taught a2+b2=c2................I thought that my teacher said ''pai'' Thagoras as in 'Bhai Thagoras',.......so I assumed that he was a Bhai saab called 'Thagoras' !!!!

As Kaliyug is moving forward, the wind of Maya is blowing harder.

People of younger generations seek intelctual satisfaction, as time moves forward, children of each generation is moving more into intelctual levels, means they do not want blind faith. When we were young, we used to play with marbles or fly kites and so on, now since they are born, they are surrounded by technology, with smart phones, tablets, computers. I remeber a few years back, my cousin´s son, who was hardly 2 years, was handling an iphone like an adult, was dialing his dad´s number and sending messages, which even I can not do today, or maybe I will be able to do it after taking me some time, and these youngsters, they do everything(technology) very fast.

Their sat antenas(minds) catch, grasp, grab, everything which happens in front of their eyes.

So naturally, in this tech age,they want answers with sense and logic, as in this field, everything is done with the aid of science, which works, and is sustained on logic. Because that is how the sciences of this world work.

In the worldly sciences, first we learn(theory) then we work on it.

While in the spiritual science, first we need to work(bhajan bandagee), then only we get the knowledge or gyan.

So while being in this world, we have to keep a balance, between swarth and parmarth, and explain the truths to the youngsters in a simple and a natural way, without scaring them, or trying to impose on them, because that will make them rebels, and create adverse feelings for the path. So we should talk to them as friends, because that is how they are used to, and then give them space to digest and assimilate the truths of the Bani, slowly but gradually.

Sat Sree Aakal.

What is devotion, how is it done, and who does true devotion?

To these questions of almost all spiritual seekers, Dhan Dhan Satguru Sachay Patshah, Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj , reveals us the Truth, in the following couple lines in Raag Gond:

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮਤਿ ਦੇਇ
Kar Kirapaa Jaa Ko Math Dhaee
करि किरपा जा कउ मति देइ
One whom the Lord blesses with understanding,


ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਨਾਉ ਲੇਇ Aath Pehar Prabh Kaa Naao Laee
आठ पहर प्रभ का नाउ लेइ
Chants the Name of God, twenty-four hours a day.


Points to take in account from these pure paviter words of Fifth Patshahee:

1) He is the one, who gives us the right understanding, faith and conviction as His blessings for performing the right devotion, which is mentioned in the following line

2) That wadbhagee jeev who gets His blessings, thus, leaves aside all other practices, and does the devotion which pleases Him the most, which is none other than, doing His Simran 24 hours a day.

Now we may ask, how can we do Naam Simran 24 hours a day? We have to do our worldy duties, towards our work, our relatives, families .....

Well as we know also from the Bani, it means doing this sadhana, this bhakti,daily on a regular basis, but also implies, that we may do it saas grass, means the rest of the time, with each breath we take, with each morsel of food we intake...

Then only, can we become pure just as He is; that also not by our efforts, but by His grace. This is Gurmat. Rest is all "manmat"

Sat Sree Akal.
Waheguru.

I know this was directed at Chaz... but i couldn't help the reminder of another Kabirji's slok....

ਕਬੀਰ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਰਨੇ ਤੇ ਜਗੁ ਡਰੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨਿ ਆਨੰਦੁ ॥
Kabīr jis marne ṯe jag darai mere man ānanḏ.
Kabeer, the world is afraid of death - that death fills my mind with bliss.

ਮਰਨੇ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦੁ ॥੨੨॥
Marne hī ṯe pā▫ī▫ai pūran parmānanḏ. ||22||
It is only by death that perfect, supreme bliss is obtained. ||22||

Kabirji is telling me that worldly death is seen differently by 2 sorts of people.............
(1) the Ignorant see it as the end as they see a time-bound consciousness and have an EGO-Being life
(2) The spiritually elevated see it as something to rejoice. They see it as a new beginning, that the life was just a middle phase. The spiritual being is united with ''Paramanand''-supreme bliss.
Kabir ji already nows how to die the Ego-being life because he dies repeatedly, every day, in anand, in meditation.

Chalisa is Chali - sa, meaning 40 chaupais.
Chaupai is chau - pai, meaning 4-line poem.

Sukhmani sahib is in Ashtpadi, Asht - padi, meaning 8 steps. Each step is 10 lines.

10 lines x 8 = 80 lines. A Chalisa is 40 x 4 = 160 lines

So my guess would be that you read 2 Ashtpadis with each Nitnem.

Anyways I don't know what the puratan maryada is so maybe someone else can chime in on that.

I know this was directed at Chaz... but i couldn't help the reminder of another Kabirji's slok....

ਕਬੀਰ ਜਿਸੁ ਮਰਨੇ ਤੇ ਜਗੁ ਡਰੈ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨਿ ਆਨੰਦੁ ॥
Kabīr jis marne ṯe jag darai mere man ānanḏ.
Kabeer, the world is afraid of death - that death fills my mind with bliss.

ਮਰਨੇ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਪਾਈਐ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਪਰਮਾਨੰਦੁ ॥੨੨॥
Marne hī ṯe pā▫ī▫ai pūran parmānanḏ. ||22||
It is only by death that perfect, supreme bliss is obtained. ||22||

Kabirji is telling me that worldly death is seen differently by 2 sorts of people.............
(1) the Ignorant see it as the end as they see a time-bound consciousness and have an EGO-Being life
(2) The spiritually elevated see it as something to rejoice. They see it as a new beginning, that the life was just a middle phase. The spiritual being is united with ''Paramanand''-supreme bliss.
Kabir ji already nows how to die the Ego-being life because he dies repeatedly, every day, in anand, in meditation.

That reminded me of
ang 1378

where Sheikh Farid is repenting in old age for not doing bhagti after wasting the years of youth


ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕਾਲੀ ਜਿਨੀ ਨ ਰਾਵਿਆ ਧਉਲੀ ਰਾਵੈ ਕੋਇ ॥
Farīḏā kālīʼn jinī na rāvi▫ā ḏẖa▫ulī rāvai ko▫e.
Fareed, those who did not enjoy their Spouse when their hair was black - hardly any of them enjoy Him when their hair turns grey.

ਕਰਿ ਸਾਂਈ ਸਿਉ ਪਿਰਹੜੀ ਰੰਗੁ ਨਵੇਲਾ ਹੋਇ ॥੧੨॥
Kar sāʼn▫ī si▫o pirhaṛī rang navelā ho▫e. ||12||
So be in love with the Lord, so that your color may ever be new. ||12||

Then Guru Amardas ji (also in old age) says ...''No, Farid, don’t say like this. The Lord is always merciful. Love is the gift which God has bestowed upon the mortals. Only he receives it to whom He gives.''.............

ਮਃ ੩ ॥
Mėhlā 3.

ਫਰੀਦਾ ਕਾਲੀ ਧਉਲੀ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਚਿਤਿ ਕਰੇ ॥
Farīḏā kālī ḏẖa▫ulī sāhib saḏā hai je ko cẖiṯ kare.
Fareed, whether one's hair is black or grey, our Lord and Master is always here if one remembers Him.
ਆਪਣਾ ਲਾਇਆ ਪਿਰਮੁ ਨ ਲਗਈ ਜੇ ਲੋਚੈ ਸਭੁ ਕੋਇ ॥
Āpṇā lā▫i▫ā piram na lag▫ī je locẖai sabẖ ko▫e.
This loving devotion to the Lord does not come by one's own efforts, even though all may long for it.

ਏਹੁ ਪਿਰਮੁ ਪਿਆਲਾ ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਜੈ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੈ ਦੇਇ ॥੧੩॥
Ėhu piram pi▫ālā kẖasam kā jai bẖāvai ṯai ḏe▫e. ||13||
This cup of loving devotion belongs to our Lord and Master; He gives it to whomever He likes. ||13||

In East London the local gurdwaras just don't bother bringing in any mainstream parcharaks. The same raagi does kirtan daily for months on end. In that way i'm envious of the midlands sangat. Seems to be all happening up there. I have only noticed that one gurdwara recently after the introduction of younger members into the gurdwara committee have started bringing in the good parcharaks. Things were beginning to get very stale.

On a personal note I feel that most raagis and sants who visit focus more on saakhi's rather than focusing on the deeper aspects of Sikhi and improving ones own jeevan/bhagti/spirituality etc in today's modern times.

Divans generally consist of:
1) Straight kirtan
2) Problems in the panth or issues of the past.
3) Saakis from history - don't get me wrong I realise their importance but how many times do you need to hear the same one before you say to yourself, here we go again..
4) Persuasion to take Amrit
5) Khalistan

In that regards I now find that if I want to go deeper on my own personal journey, for that I am going to have to put in the effort myself and seek and seriously put in the dedicated time within myself. As I approach my 40s its beginning to dawn upon as my dhari turns 30% white that my time is running out, assuming I have a few years left, what have I achieved spiritually of what I now understand to be the true Sikhi essense for me anyway. Nothing!!! The definition for what Sikhi is for me has now changed and it is now more about my own inner journey and for that I don't think I will find what I'm looking for in your regular gurdwara. Yes maharaj's darshan is important as well as being in their physical pressence, but to be quite frank the SGGS app and actually reading Guru Maharaj on my iPad or the pdf documents or youtube videos on my computer now offer me more giyan and constant reminder and inspiration I now seek.

Life is becoming more complicated and demanding as the presures and responsibilities of family and day to day life increase. They were right when they said start bhagti in your younger years because it only becomes more difficult as you become older. The only problem was that I was not aware of it then nor took it seriously, let alone knew what to do.

Have our gurdwara's let us down? I don't think its fair to say that but I believe they will only take us so far. The rest of the journey has to be made within yourself and for that your maybe on your own or should I say two, you and Waheguru. The aim now is soley for the two to become One, or to experience (saying you know is not enough) there was only ever One to begin with.

WaheGuru

ਸਾਚ ਬਿਨਾ ਸੂਚਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਹੀ ਨਾਨਕ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ
Saach Binaa Soochaa Ko Naahee Naanak Akathh Kehaanee
साच बिना सूचा को नाही नानक अकथ कहाणी
Without the True Name, no one can become pure; O Nanak, this is the Unspoken Speech.


ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਨਿਰਮਲੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਬਾਣੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਰਹੈ ਸਮਾਏ
Than Man Niramal Niramal Baanee Saachai Rehai Samaaeae
तनु मनु निरमलु निरमल बाणी साचै रहै समाए
His body and mind become immaculate, through the Immaculate Bani of the Word. He remains absorbed in Truth.

In these above lines of First Patshahee Dhan Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj, He clears some of our brahams or misconceptions of the spiritual reality :

Firstly,He says that, if we believe we are sinners, we are not pure, we are not worthy, then practice the devotion of Naam bhakti, as soon as possible, because without this bhakti no one can become pure.

Then in the second line He confirms us, that, by doing this type of bhakti, one´s body, and mind, both become immaculate, then one is attuned to the Anhad Bani or Shabad within, this is also drinking the inner Amrit, which one reaches by doing Naam Simran alone, this Amrit is made by Wahiguru Himself, rather we can say, this Amrit is Wahiguru Himself, who cleanses us, who purifies us, with His Shabad form, from all our sins and sanskaras, as well as all the vikaars, then naturally we become pure paviter, and again by this Amrit we merge in Him, but if seen with attention to this whole process of our purification and union with Him, it started with the simple jugtee of Naam Simran.

Truly Naam Simran is the panacea for everything.

Waheguru.