critisising hindu avatars?

[amardeep]

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa; Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

i was wondering..why does Gurbani critisice and mock hindu avatars as krishna, shiva, ram etc...i dont remember the references, but it says that they are filthy, that they made mistakes, they made errors etc...

i will find the references later

[Mystical]

I dont feel Guru Ji mocked them. But saw Avatars as Bhagats of Vaheguru. If only a Nirmala would step in now.

[Guest]

really good question amardeep veer ji,

rupz is right, let the senior members of this forum answer this one.

I ll respond to your question later on.

[amardeep]

some references:

All the gods and goddesses are enticed by Maya. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 227)

She has bewitched Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Only those Gurmukhs who are attuned to the Naam are blessed. ||2|| (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 394)

Through Brahma, the hymns of the Vedas were revealed, but the love of Maya spread. The wise one, Shiva, remains absorbed in himself, but he is engrossed in dark passions and excessive egotism. ||2|| Vishnu is always busy reincarnating himself - who will save the world? The Gurmukhs are imbued with spiritual wisdom in this age; they are rid of the darkness of emotional attachment. ||3|| (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 559)

The Vedas do not know His greatness. Brahma does not know His mystery…. Shiva does not know His mystery. The gods gave grown weary of searching for Him. (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, Ang 894)

here are links to other mocks:

http://www.searchsikhism.com/hind11.html

http://www.searchsikhism.com/hind10.html

[vinegar]

I would not call it mocking, merely telling us what they really are.

We have demons and devte, the path of the gursikh is neither, it is right in the middle, with no discrimination between 'good' and 'evil', we hve to become nirgun, without paap, without gun - something that is only possible through human birth.

The hindu gods are devte, in jap ji sahib it says that they can't see waheguru. Maya is, by definition, that which makes you forget waheguru, so they are naturally bewitched by her, it is the natural state of things.

Guru Sahib is not saying good things about them, nor is he saying bad things about them. They have their own duties, which is not to bring us naam.

[tSingh]

Interesting point Amardeep. I'll be brief.

Even puratan shaastra goes in for the same! For example the idea that there have been countless Brahmas is found in Sri Yog Vashista! The idea that brahmgyan is not found in the Vedas....is in the Vedas itself!!! One of the main Upanishads talks about higher and lower knowledge, higher or brahmgyan is only acquired through a guru, and is beyond words. Those who think it is contained in the lower knowledge of the Vedas is lost! That Upanishad is in the Vedas! Likewise, Guru Maharaj would also says repeatedly that the highest experience of brahmgyan is beyond words 'akatha katha'!! It is agam agochar, beyond human thought! If its beyond human thought, how can it be written down anywhere!!! What words can do is lead you to that point, that is the function of the Guru, that is why Kabir Ji mathatek's his gurdev before God in his shabad. Only a fool would conclude that because the Guru says he couldn't find it in the quran or vedas, both are false and only Guru Granth Sahib is right!!!

On the avatars, the Guru sets two parameters. One is that in Raag Maaroo Parmatma's sargun saroop included earlier avatars, there is a devotional sentiment to the physical aspects in that long shabad of Guru Arjun Dev. Secondly, the bhatts draw a line of continuity between earlier avatars and the Guru. Bhai Gurdas explains waheguru mantra being the simran of V = vasudev, H = Hari, R = Ram and G = Gobind. Hence, the hari avatar of each yug. Guru Gobind Singh in one part describes countless rams and krishnas (which from a vedantic perspective there of course are), and that all that is trehgun (i.e. afflicted by them - which is referred to in the brahma, vishnu, shiv bit you quote) is impermanent and likely to rot and decay including the physical roop of avatar. Hence, the point is; unlike other updesh/forms of vedant/samprdayas, the sargun svaroop is definately not the essence (i.e. Gaudiya samprdaya - Chaitanya samprdaya's view that the nirgun being the 'energies' emitting from the sargun form, thus the highest stage being friendship with the physical form - for these lots the 'mayavaadi's are despised as heretics in claiming that the nirgun is the highest form). It is the nirgun which manifested the sargun. On the nature of maya, it itself is brahma, vishnu, mahesh - i.e. causality and change in time - the processes. Read Dakhani Onkar, it is clear from there where Brahma comes from. This is one of the traditional interpretations of Om for example, the manifestation of Parmatma. For more details on this, read more about traditional indian philosophy and hinduism in general.

[drawrof]

The important question that this poses is where in one's practice does one become fixated on the sargun? What are actual indices of this (quasi)-state? and what is the motivation of one to remain in such a fixated paradigm....the truth behind all this permeates each of our inner natures in every respect of life...*my 2 paisay*

[Mekhane'ch Jannat]

How can the abstract be mocked. Even through mocking it is paying respects. WHether real or unreal the devta's etc are upon a different level from our everyday world characterised by words and speech. The sentiment that underlies what you call mocking is a beautiful gem. Even an insult can be full of love if pervaded by the right sentiment. It is only the frail 'i must grab onto things" ego of man that feels mocked when an infinetly small aspect of god is seemingly mocked when taken at face value.

Another point is even if we mock in opposition to something we still accept that thing we mock as part of our thinking. It is not beyond the pale. So mocking on another level helps the culture grow mutually rather than stagnating by protecting words and concepts, thereby being dead and not alive and vibrant.

[das]

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ke Fateh,

This is NOT mocking. We need to look at the deep meaning of these stances instead of saying that Gurbani mocks at Hindu avatars etc. etc...............These things can also be found in Dasam Granth Sahib.

People at that time thinks that Bramha, Siva, and Vishnu are the top powers. No one is above them. The power created by GOD made people worship them.

ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥

जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥

All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.

They are supreme. But Gurbani told us that they are not the supereme, they are also part of the creation of ONE SUPEREME GOD/WAHEGURU. IT is WAHEGURU who created them to sustain the world: Brahma is creator; Siva is destoryer; and Vishnu is sustainer; AND IT IS WAHEGURU from WHOM the devtas took power to create/destory/sustain the world.

Gurbani tells us that even some top devtas are filled with ego, maya and other things which are NOT pure sato gun. Everything is within KAL, even the devtas/avatars are within KAL.....ONLY WAHEGURU himself is outside KAL.......this is what Gurbani is telling us and that's NOT mockery.

"All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme." (Dasam Granth)

therefore Gurbani says that no-one is equal to GOD.

The whole thing is to let us (kalyugi jev) know that IT is only WAHEGURU/GOD which is our destination and NOT the devtas/avatars..........because all avatars, saints, prophets, hermits are within the KAL.........ONLY WAHEGURU is outside KAL.......and WAHEGURU can be achieved only through the Guru.......

ਕਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਸੇ ਕੀਟ ਕੋਟੈ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਕਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਮੇਟਿ ਡਾਰੇ ਉਪਾਏ ॥

Somewhere He hath created millions of the servants like Krishna. Somewhere He hath effaced and then created (many) like Rama.

ਮਹਾਦੀਨ ਕੇਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥੀ ਮਾਂਝ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਮੈ ਆਪਨੀ ਆਪਨੀ ਅੰਤ ਮੂਏ ॥੨੭॥

महादीन केते प्रिथी मांझ हूए ॥ समै आपनी आपनी अंत मूए ॥२७॥

Many Muhammads had been on the earth. They were born and then died in their own times. 27.

ਜਿਤੇ ਅਉਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਹੋਇ ਬੀਤੇ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਜੀਤੇ ॥

जिते अउलीआ अमबीआ होइ बीते ॥ तितिओ काल जीता न ते काल जीते ॥

All the Prophets and saints of the past were conquered by Death (KAL), but none could conquer it (him).

ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਸੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹੁਇ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਿਓ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲ ਘਾਏ ॥੨੮॥

जिते राम से क्रिसन हुइ बिसन आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापिओ न ते काल घाए ॥२८॥

All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishan were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him. 28.

ਜਿਤੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰ ਸੇ ਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਸੇ ਹੋਤ ਆਏ ॥ ਤਿਤਿਓ ਕਾਲ ਖਾਪਾ ਨ ਤੇ ਕਾਲਿ ਘਾਏ ॥

जिते इंद्र से चंद्र से होत आए ॥ तितिओ काल खापा न ते कालि घाए ॥

All the indras and Chandras (moons) who came into being were destroyed by KAL, but they could not destroy him.

ਜਿਤੇ ਔਲੀਆ ਅੰਬੀਆ ਗੌਸ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਅੰਤ ਦਾੜਾ ਤਲੈ ਹੈਂ ॥੨੯॥

जिते औलीआ अमबीआ गौस ह्वै हैं ॥ सभै काल के अंत दाड़ा तलै हैं ॥२९॥

All those Prophets, saints and hermits, who came into being, were all ultimately crushed under the grinder tooth of KAL.29.

ਜਿਤੇ ਮਾਨਧਾਤਾਦਿ ਰਾਜਾ ਸੁਹਾਏ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਬਾਂਧ ਕੈ ਕਾਲ ਜੇਲੈ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

जिते मानधातादि राजा सुहाए ॥ सभै बांध कै काल जेलै चलाए ॥

All the glorious kings like Mandhata were all bound down and thrown in the noose of KAL.

ਜਿਨੈ ਨਾਮ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਉਚਾਰੋ ਉਬਾਰੇ ॥ ਬਿਨਾ ਸਾਮ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਲਖੇ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਾਰੇ ॥੩੦॥

जिनै नाम ता को उचारो उबारे ॥ बिना साम ता की लखे कोटि मारे ॥३०॥

Those who have remembered the Name of the Lord, have been saved, without coming under His refuge, millions are considered as having been killed by KAL.30.

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ਜਿਤੇ ਰਾਮ ਹੂਏ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਮੂਏ ॥

जिते राम हूए ॥ सभै अंति मूए ॥

All the Ramas who incarnated, ultimately passed away.

ਜਿਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਜੈ ਹੈਂ ॥੭੦॥

जिते क्रिसन ह्वै हैं ॥ सभै अंति जै हैं ॥७०॥

All the Krishnas, who had incarnated, have all passed away.70.

ਜਿਤੇ ਦੇਵ ਹੋਸੀ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤ ਜਾਸੀ ॥

जिते देव होसी ॥ सभै अंत जासी ॥

All the gods who will come into being in future, they will all ultimately expire.

ਜਿਤੇ ਬੋਧ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤਿ ਛੈਹੈਂ ॥੭੧॥

जिते बोध ह्वै हैं ॥ सभै अंति छैहैं ॥७१॥

Alll the Buddhas, who came into being, expired ultimately.71.

ਜਿਤੇ ਦੇਵ ਰਾਯੰ ॥ ਸਭੈ ਅੰਤ ਜਾਯੰ ॥

जिते देव रायं ॥ सभै अंत जायं ॥

All the god-kings, who came into being, ultimately passed away.

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ਔਰ ਸੁਕਾਲ ਸਭੈ ਬਸ ਕਾਲ ਕੇ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕਾਲ ਅਕਾਲ ਸਦਾ ਹੈ ॥੮੪॥

और सुकाल सभै बस काल के एक ही काल अकाल सदा है ॥८४॥

All the other prevalent object are within KAL, only One supreme KAL is ever Timeless and eternal.84.

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ਜਬ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ ਦਈਤ ਰਚੇ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੁਖਦਾਈ ॥

जब पहिले हम स्रिसटि बनाई ॥ दईत रचे दुसट दुखदाई ॥

When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas.

ਤੇ ਭੁਜ ਬਲ ਬਵਰੇ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਏ ॥ ਪੂਜਤ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਰਹਿ ਗਏ ॥੬॥

ते भुज बल बवरे ह्वै गए ॥ पूजत परम पुरख रहि गए ॥६॥

Who became mad with power and abandoned the worship of Supreme Purusha.6.

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥

ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥

I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.

ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥

ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥

They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.

ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥

महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥

Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥

ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥

Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.

ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥

तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥

Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.

ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥

ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥

But they considered themselves all in all and asked the people to worship them.9

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ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥

जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥

All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.

ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥

ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥

They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12

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ਜੇ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਤ ਭਯੋ ਜਗਿ ਸਿਆਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੋ ਪੰਥੁ ਚਲਾਨਾ ॥੧੪॥

जे कोई होत भयो जगि सिआना ॥ तिन तिन अपनो पंथु चलाना ॥१४॥

On whomsoever wisdom dawned, he started his own path. 14.

ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨਹ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਬੈਰ ਬਾਦ ਅਹੰਕਾਰ ਬਢਾਯੋ ॥

परम पुरख किनहूं नह पायो ॥ बैर बाद अहंकार बढायो ॥

None could realise the Supreme Lord, but instead spread strife, enmity and ego.

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ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥

सभ अपनी अपनी उरझाना ॥ पारब्रहम काहू न पछाना ॥

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend the Supreme Brahman.

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ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

जे प्रभु परम पुरख उपजाए ॥ तिन तिन अपने राह चलाए ॥

All the great Purushas created by me started their own paths.

ਜਿਮ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੀ ਇਨੈ ਤਿਮ ਕਹਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕਿਸੂ ਤੇ ਬੈਰ ਨ ਗਹਿਹੋਂ ॥੩੧॥

जिम तिन कही इनै तिम कहिहों ॥ अउर किसू ते बैर न गहिहों ॥३१॥

Whatever the Lord said, I am repeating the same unto you, I do not bear enmity with anyone.31.

And that's the reason that NONE of the our 10 GURUS claim themselves to be GOD and even Guru Gobind Singh Ji said that:

ਜੋ ਹਮ ਕੋ ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਉਚਰਿ ਹੈਂ ॥ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਨਰਕਿ ਕੁੰਡ ਮਹਿ ਪਰਿਹੈਂ ॥

जो हम को परमेसर उचरि हैं ॥ ते सभ नरकि कुंड महि परिहैं ॥

Whosoever shall call me the Lord, shall fall into hell.

So, please do NOT think that Gurbani is mocking the Hindu avatar, try to understand the core concept.

Bhul chuk de maffi

Das

[amardeep]

by saying krishna and vishnu are avatars, and at the same time say they were into maya, is contradicting..how can an avatar, image of God, be into maya?

[das]

Firstly, we need to understand what is Maya.

GOD decides to transform itself into many roops WITH Maya. Maya gives birth to 3 gunas - rajo, tamo, sato guna; From Maya sky is born; From sky air is born; From air fire is born; From fire water is born; From water earth is born. This series is exactly the opposite during destruction (maha-parlo).

Any being with pure sato gun is GOD himself.

Everthing (including humans, Avatars, Deities, top deities like: Brahama, Shiv, Vishnu) is this universe is made up of 5 elements (sky/ether, air, fire, water, earth/mud). And everything is under Kaal/Time, even Maya is under Kaal.............so it means that all Avatars, deities, Sants are under Kaal. All avtars were born and then gone to merge with GOD, so it's obvious that they in human form were within kal.

There is only One GOD who is NOT within Kaal.

The avatars were NOT God. GOD do NOT take birth. The avtars were sent by GOD himself to propagate the name of GOD. Avtars were one with GOD, like: the avtars does merge with GOD after their human form, but we can NOT say that avtars were GOD. Guru Gobind Singh Ji is one with GOD, but Guruji ordered us NOT to call him GOD.

"Everyone is caught in the noose of Death, no Rama or prophet can escape from it. All of them who made grand claims of being Avtars of God died repentant. Why doest not thou, O, hapless being seek the shelter of the One Lord. (15th swayya)"

Even the Indra (king of heaven) is under the chakar of Kal. Maya ties to effect everything, but the persons taking shelter of One Waheguru are saved from maya, infact maya does salute them (whom she tried to effect, but they didn't get affected).

There are 4 yugs (Sat Yuga, Dwapara Yuga, ThrethaYuga, and the Kali Yuga) and in each yug there are 84 avatars who take birth on this earth. Every avatar is NOT the exact image of GOD......I mean to say that they are NOT GOD.......the different kind of avatars are as follows during each yug:

There are different types of avatars:

Ansa Avtar

Aveshya Avtar

Kala Avtar

Nit Avtar

Namit Avtar

Pooran Avtar

Guru Avtar

The above mentioned avatars have different levels of powers and Guru Avatar does have almost all powers.

Those who merges with GOD tells us that after Brahamgyan everything looks like the part of Waheguru and it's just maya who is NOT allowing us (kalyugi jevs) to see Waheguru in every being.

Bhul chuk de maffi

das

[Guest]

great post das ji

i ll post my thoughts in a bit.

[amardeep]

Visnu incarnated ten times and decimated his opposing warriors.

The incarnations in the forms of fish, tortoise, swine, man-lion, dwarf and Buddha etc. have happened.

Parsu Ram, Ram, Kisan and very much proud incarnation of Kalki have flourished.

Ram was hero of Ramayan, and kisan was all in the mahabharat.

But the lust and anger were not sublimited and greed, infatuation and ego were not eschewed.

None remembered the true Guru (God) and nobody benefited himself in the holy congregation.

All acted arrogantly being full of evil propensities.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?Sour...&Line_No=08

is it not a huge accusation, to say that the ram vishnu etc lost to kam krodh lobh moh hankaar etc?

[amardeep]

on shiva:

Though Mahadev was an ascetic of high order but being full of ignorance he could not even identify yoga.

http://www.sikhitothemax.com/page.asp?Sour...&Line_No=09

[tSingh]

Amardeep Ji,

You have quoted Bhai Gurdas' Varan here. I personally question the quality of those translations. Also, Vaar 39 is missing on sikhitothemax site, in which a slightly different angle on Raam Chandar is given.

Explain one thing, how does the Vaar you have cut and pasted fit in with Bhai Gurdas' explanation of Vahiguru mantr? What is the teaching behind it about the nature of avatar?

Secondly WHY are the historical narratives, the Ramayan and the Mahabharat stated BEFORE the statement of 'but none lost their egos'? Why in Vaar 39 does Bhai Gurdas again mention the Ramayan specifically? What does the Ramayan represent?

This issue requires careful thought with the original text, not copied and pasted translations probably from the awful Gobind Singh Mansukhani version.

[Guest]

This is my understanding from sant mahapursh tapes katha, please correct me if i m wrong.I think avtars before sri guru nanak dev ji defaniately came in this world for benefit of human kind and they did without any question but during the course of benefit of man kind, avtars have failed to fullfill their full mission. Thus result, Guru Nanak Dev Ji by nirankar himself came in this world as puran hari avtar. This is more narrated in bachitar natak by sri guru gobind singh ji.

Mein Ho Param Purkh Ko Dasa Dekhan Aio Jagat Tamasa ||

Nanak Guru Gobind Puran Hari Avtar.

[das]

I agree with Neo bhaji.......... Guru Nanak Dev ji is Sarb Kala Samrath Avatar and our all GURUS are EK joot.........even being a Sarb Kala Samarath Avatar, neither GURU Nanak Dev Ji nor other 9 Gurus never ever asked anyone to worship Him........infact Guru Gobind Singh Ji warned us NOT to call Him GOD................Avatars BEFORE Guru Nanak Dev Ji failed to propagate the name of ONE LORD..........they actually propagate themselves as God..................

As explained in the previous post, maya's job is to: HIDE ORIGINAL THING AND DISPLAY SOMETHING ELSE INSTEAD OF THE ORIGINAL............maya effect everyone even if it is avatar, it depends on the avatar whether He continues to be a worshiper of One GOD or be effected by maya...........because the avatar is in human form and human form is made by 5 elements which is bond by maya, and it is maya which gives rise to kaam, kridh, lobh, moh, and pride.......in GOD there is no blood, but in human form the avatar's body does have blood......so there are certain things/principles under which this universe is running........human does have some characteritics which any avatar has to fulfill in order to be in human form........same thing with maya.

example: took a glass of water from sea, now both water in glass and sea are exactly same.......there is NO difference.......both have exactly same qualities........Is it ok for the water in glass to say that I am sea.......I guess NO.......even though it is same, but it cannot say that.........now, is there any way that you can store entire sea in one bottle?? But there is a way to store same water from sea (with lesser Quantity but same Quality) in a bottle........and the water in glass is bound to the shape of glass/bottle (because it is the glass/bottle who has made possible to store small amount of water)..........

So, that way sea is GOD himself, and there is NO way that GOD can take birth (He is Ajoni......cannot be born out of womb)..........so, GOD sent avatars in human-form (humans are made of 5 elements), so it means that human form can be effected by Maya........now it depends on the Avtars whether to tell people that they are GOD (by coming under maya) OR be above maya by letting people know that they are nothing (even though they are everything) and asking everyone to remember that One LORD.

secondly, according to Dasam Granth Sahib: Vishnu took 24 incarnations and NOT 10 incarnations.

bhul chuk de maffi

das

[tSingh]

A couple of things. You've fallen back into that 'our avatar is better than yours' malarky. The qualification of a 'pooran hari avatar' is not that it is (the only) complete one (at the expense of others).

Traditionally both Ram and Krishna are recognised as also 'pooran hari avatars'. In otherwords, it is a term denoting a category of avatar that preceeded the Gurus historically. Other earlier avatars are partial or projected differently. The essence of Ram and Krishna that qualified them as Parmatma is the same essence of the Guru. In each yug, an appropriate dharam is needed, in kalyug the Guru brought it. That is the teaching of Pandit Gulab Singh and early Nirmalay. That is the implication of the bhatts' verses. That then explains Bhai Gurdas' verses, and Bhagat Namdev's double sided take on Ram Chander.

If the issue of the earlier avatars only propogating their own names, surely then the Guru is just as guilty of it with Raam and numerous pseudonyms for Krishna being used in Gurbani! What the actual teaching of the 'naatak' or allegorical play is, is that the followers started meditating on the SARGUN attributes of Ram and Krishan bhagwan, rather than their nirgun essence.

Take for example the position of the Gaudiya samprdaya (i.e. Chaitanya, contemporary with Guru Maharaj) who state that 'mayavaadis' (in other words nirgunvaadis) have mistaken the 'lower' formless energies of Krishan bhagwan for him, rather than his highest sargun form in the eternal heavenly realm of vrindavan.

Therefore the purport of the teaching is to distinguish the Sikh interpretation of avatar, IN CONTRAST to this above view which was the bedrock of Brijvasis at that time. It is the nirgun form that is thus proposed to be its purest form for Sikhi.

As for the analogy of water and sea water, be careful. That is the state of a brahmgyani. The name for an individual who is plagued by the gunas but is in essence Parmatma is a 'human being' not an avatar. The distinction is, was the Guru ever anything other than aware of parmatma?

10 incarnation is another model of the vaishnav Hari Avatars, with nehkhalank to come. It is not incorrect.

[Guest]

great post tsingh, eye opener

[Dynamic_Banda]

i used to have a headless chicken avatar.. but it got deleted from the host server..

but great post tsingh..

[drawrof]

Mahapurash such as baba jagjit singh has categorized guru nanak as a puran hari avatar...whereas you'll see taksal giving guru nanak the title of guru avtar.

[Guest]

drawrof sion is there any difference between puran hari avtar and guru avtar?

I thought they were same.

[gsingh00]

i think pooran avtar refers to ram chandar jee and krishna jee, because they had 16 gun/qualities (cant remember the exact thing rite now, if you want me to check it up in the japjee sahib steek though, i can). Before Guru Nanak Dev Jee came these avtars were looked as being pooran, or having all the qualities. Guru Nanak Dev Jee did not lack any of these qualities, but instead had even more that the previous avtars didnt have (once again, cant remember them of my memory right now).

Listen to Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh Jee's katha on japjee sahib on gurmatveechar.com, he talks about all this stuff in the first or 2nd file, or if you have the jap jee sahib steek by Sant Gurbachan Singh, you can check it up in there.

I think Kam translated this part of the steek into english and posted it on this site once.

[drawrof]

Although I respect gyani gurbachan singh ji and wouldn't dare to question it; I am not 100% sure about the theory..only because I don't know if anyone else has qualified it.

[guv]

Bhai Gurdas explains waheguru mantra being the simran of V = vasudev, H = Hari, R = Ram and G = Gobind. Hence, the hari avatar of each yug.

v = vishnu... ?

ਸਿਤਜੁਗ ਸਿਤਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਾਵਾ ਿਵਸਨਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਾਵੈ ॥

Any being with pure sato gun is GOD himself.

ਤ੍ੈ ਗੁਨ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਹੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਿਖ ਚਉਥਾ ਪਦੁ ਪਾਇ ॥

The three qualities hold people in attachment to Maya. The Gurmukh attains the fourth state of higher consciousness.