Origins of Sikhism

[amardeep]

Aad Sach,

Jugaad Sach,

Hai Bhi Sach

Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach.

On the basis of the following two quotes I wish to discuss the origins of Sikhism :

Sarbloh.com

Modern Sikh historians trace the origins of Sikhism back to Akali Guru Nanak (1469-1539). However, Sanatan (Traditional) Sikh orders trace the origins of Sikhism to before the beginning of time.

Namdhari Faith web

To trace the roots of Sikhism, one may have to go back thousands of years before the birth of Jesus Christ and the Islamic prophet Mohammad. For Sikhism is not just a form of religion or belief, but a form of Faith, in ONE Supreme Power that reigns beyond the scope of Time and Space.

Though revived by Guru Nanak Devji, the First Master of the present Time, relationships of The Master and The Student, i.e. Guru and Sikh, has been around since the Times of the earliest Hindu Gods.

I have come across four different versions

- Sikhism is a brand new religion without any relations to religions of the past.

= A Brand new religion.. It has no ties to the past, and gives no answer to why God did not guide(Give Naam) to humanity before the comming of Guru Nanak. This is mostly seen among Akj and other such jathas

- Sikhism is a continuation of indian religions, Guru Nanak is here seen as one out of many sargun aspects of God in the line of Krishna, Rama etc. The Message and philosophy of Guru Nanak was the same message/philosophy preached by avatars of the past.

= A religion that keeps coming back time and time again. Has existed for hundreds of thousands of years and Krishna, Rama etc are all included as different manifestations of God, This view is seen among naamdharis and sanatan sikhs

- Sikhism is an off-shoot of hinduism/Islam being completely dependent on these. The Gurus either owned allegience to the respective founder of each religion

= A sect of a much greater religion. This sect was started by Guru Nanak in 1469. This view is seen among certain hindues and muslims

- Sikhism is the esoteric aspect of all former religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam and "hinduism", the only difference being that this time the Esoteric Ultimate truth was preached openly to mankind with the coming of Guru Nanak. THis theory is based on the fact that the mystical and esoteric sects of semetic religions are quite similiar to Sikhism, and each of these sects claim to be the hidden and real interpretation of Quran bible etc.

= Sikhism is the Ultimate Truth of all religions. The Message of Sikhism has always existed but has been hidden by the Law of all religions of the past. In order to find this Ultimate Truth(Sikhism) in the religion, one would have to go beyond the exoteric aspect to reach into the core of the esoteric.

Sikhism here functions as the sun hidden behind the clouds while still giving its light to the world....

this view is seen among certain nirmalas and saints

These are the 4 i have come across..

please discuss each and everyone and give us your views on how you see Sikhi fit into the history of world religion.....

I personally belive Sikhi to fit into the fourth category whereas religions of the past are the Truth, where Sikhism is the Ultimate Truth.

i hope to see responses from tony, tsingh, niranjana, neo singh and shaheediyan and others

[shaheediyan]

I think 2 and 4 both would both be evidenced by Gurbani.

[amardeep]

how would you back up the fourth view by using Gurbani and other sikh scriptures?

If anyone have knowledge of the Gita and Vedas, please give your input on whether this theory of Sikhism can be backed up by using hindu scriptures alone..

[fatehsingh]

There's another version that has become quite popular among certain groups and I've heard it since the 70's: Sikhism is the realization of 'Shabad Guru'. This realization started only with Guru Nanak. All the Gurus were merely messengers or vessels of this 'Shabad Guru' and they have revealed 'Shabad Guru' to the world. 'Shabad Guru' existed even before the universe and is the 'Real' Guru. The tenth Guru realized this and made 'Shabad Guru' the eternal Guru.

[shaheediyan]

"how would you back up the fourth view by using Gurbani and other sikh scriptures?"

There are many examples in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sri Dasam Granth Ji. Below is one;

Guru Nanak Dev Ji says:

har dhundh vigucheeai ghar meh vasat suthaae||

[amardeep]

Could you provide an english translation and the ang so we can read the context.

What is the view on the origins of Sikhi among the four sampardayas?

[chatanga]

i hope to see responses from tony, tsingh, niranjana, neo singh and shaheediyan .

thanks for putting my name in. wot ju fink? i dont no nuffin?

[amardeep]

lol....i really haven't noticed your posts on sa, so sorry but please give your inputs veerji

[shaheediyan]

Ang 63.

Many apologies, the tuk should read:

"Baahar" dhundh vigucheeai ghar meh vasat suthaae||

My basic understanding would be:

They become lost in the external search, while the sacred object resides in the inner temple.

In addition you could apply Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Svaaiya in Benti Chaupai quite relevantly.

[Niranjana]

"apply Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Svaaiya in Benti Chaupai quite relevantly"

Which svaaiya actually appears "in" the Benti Chaupai? I am aware of the Dohras and Chaupai and Arrill measures that precede and follow it, but not any svaaiya? Are you referring to the svaaiya in the Rehiras taken from the "Ram Avtar" composition in Dasam Granth?

[Niranjana]

amardeep,

As requested, please see below my ‘initial’ summary thoughts on your question:

“Sikhism is a brand new religion without any relations to religions of the past. A Brand new religion.. It has no ties to the past, and gives no answer to why God did not guide(Give Naam) to humanity before the comming of Guru Nanak. This is mostly seen among Akj and other such jathas “

Happy to explain further as to why I do not personally concur with this thought, however in the interim, I think we can set all AKJ literature to one side. They are after all a 20th century revisionist/revivalist organisation, so hardly have the stamp of authenticity on their theories and suffer from what I have referred to in previous posts as the common problem with most fundamentalists:

1. Most fundamentalist claims cannot be proven, and are irrational, demonstrably false, or contrary to (scientific or other) evidence.

2. Fundamentalists try to appear uniform and simple however are usually splitered into mutually antagonistic subgroups with several variations of the underlying premises (usually different texts of (religious) law and arying interpretations), these splinters are often as hostile to each other as they are to others (outsiders).

3. Fundamendalists are typically glued to their leaders and are hence little more than personality cults.

4. Fundamentalists are frequently selective in what they believe and practice.

5. Fundamentalists utlimately seek to claim that the manner in which things are done today is not the same as the way they were done in their original (ancient, puratan, traditional etc) manner since these ‘original’ truths have been been lost or forgotten today – this is the main problem, if these ancient and original truths have been lost and forgotten, how and why do the fundamentalists now know them? This is what typically leads to the above 1 - 4 issues being manifest amongst such groups, be they religious or secular (for those who are interested look up ‘market fundamentalism’ and how it is critiqued along similar lines – Nicholas Nassim Taleb does some fine work in this manner).

The above is largely applicable to the AKJ and I think for purposes of your question, we can set aside their views.

“Sikhism is a continuation of indian religions, Guru Nanak is here seen as one out of many sargun aspects of God in the line of Krishna, Rama etc. The Message and philosophy of Guru Nanak was the same message/philosophy preached by avatars of the past. A religion that keeps coming back time and time again. Has existed for hundreds of thousands of years and Krishna, Rama etc are all included as different manifestations of God, This view is seen among naamdharis and sanatan sikhs “

The Namdhari view is ‘Sanatan’, since arguably they came from the Sanatan tradition, albeit as a revivalist group. I personally feel the manner in which the UK Sanatanis have positioned this belief is grossly over simplified and easily lends itself to be open to gross misinterpretation (that is, if they themselves are not already guilty of this, given the views of some of their adherents).

“Sikhism is an off-shoot of hinduism/Islam being completely dependent on these. The Gurus either owned allegience to the respective founder of each religion A sect of a much greater religion. This sect was started by Guru Nanak in 1469. This view is seen among certain hindues and muslims “

I think we can ignore this view on the basis that it is little more than politically motivated. Those who propagate such views are typically themselves in some sort of political lobby or position and stand to benefit from it or have some personal vendetta that they wish to settle. Certain segments of Hindus hold the view that “Hinduism is the source of everything and everything eventually flows back into Hinduism†according to them, even Muslims are Hindus and a whole host of interesting myths are established regarding Islam being some offshoot from Shivite paganism and a national Arab movement to support such a notion. Rajinder Singh Chaudhry, the self-proclaimed “Jatt Sikh Nirmala†has gone to hard efforts to prove that Sikhism is a continuation of “Christianityâ€, there are several other similar examples too, applicable to Sikhi as they are to all other religions. I personally find all of this talk to be immature and quite petty.

“Sikhism is the esoteric aspect of all former religions such as Judaism, Christianity, Islam and "hinduism", the only difference being that this time the Esoteric Ultimate truth was preached openly to mankind with the coming of Guru Nanak. THis theory is based on the fact that the mystical and esoteric sects of semetic religions are quite similiar to Sikhism, and each of these sects claim to be the hidden and real interpretation of Quran bible etc. Sikhism is the Ultimate Truth of all religions. The Message of Sikhism has always existed but has been hidden by the Law of all religions of the past. In order to find this Ultimate Truth(Sikhism) in the religion, one would have to go beyond the exoteric aspect to reach into the core of the esoteric. Sikhism here functions as the sun hidden behind the clouds while still giving its light to the world.... this view is seen among certain nirmalas and saintsâ€

Whilst expressed a little more clarity, this also suffers from a similar problem as that mentioned above for the sanatanis, in this case if read simplistically it can result in confusion and I am not sure that Nirmalas perhaps see things as so black and white and necessarily relating Semitic and/or Abrahamic traditions – I’ll leave TSingh to comment on this appropriately.

Personally, Sikhism today is an independent religion, however like all traditions, it has evolved over time to become unique in its own right, put it simplistically for comparable purposes, Christianity for a long period was little more than a sect (even blasphemous by certain standards) within the wider Jewish community before expanding to what we see today. That much said, there is no doubting that the underlying philosophical elements of Gurmat link back primarily to the Upanishads, hence my earlier comment regarding your linking back to Semitic/Abrahamic traditions, whilst not doubting there to be considerable similarities between all religions, God, Allah etc are not directly comparable to “Advait Brahman†which is common amongst the Upanishads and Gurmat, although both seek to describe the same underlying ‘ultimate reality’.

[shaheediyan]

Yes Niranjana, as appears towards the end of benti chaupai in Rehiraas Sahib.

[amardeep]

Interesting view point Niranjana and thank you for taking the time to write your post.

I would agree when you concluded that the first "Akj" interpretation of Sikhism is not to be considered as authentic as this interpretation is based on modern standards and a huge emphazis on being a seperate race, cult or religion apart from all others.

The third as Sikhism being a sect of Hinduism/Islam/Christianity I would also leave out as there are no evidence of this to be found in either The Guru Granth Sahib or the Dasam Granth.

This leaves us with the second and fourth definitions.

What is interesting is not what Sikhism has devoloped into today, but rather what the teachings of the Gurus originally were when it comes to the origins of this Religion. THe Mool Mantra ends with Aad Sach, Jugaad Sach, Hai bhi Sach, Nanak Hosi Bhi Sach, and these lines contain numerous gems for searchers of Truth in finding the origins of religion, but these lines can also be misused by groups that have their own agenda.

The reason i Belive Sikhism to fit into the fourth category is:

Upanishads literally means "Hidden knowledge" and the teachings of the early upanishads have loads of similarities. The Upanishads are said to be the esoteric elements of the Vedas.

In the christian tradition the gnostics(gnosis means knowledge) function as the mystics with the hidden knowledge, and their belief in a God being omnipresent and imanent, belief in reincarnation, meditaion and Union with God are also found. Same thing can be said of the kabalas of judaism and certain mystic groups of Islam.

Gurbani seperates the world religions into two groups, that of the Indian tradition, and those of the semetic traditions:

Ėk sāhib ḏu­ė rāh vāḏ vaḏẖanḏi­ā jī­o.

There is only the One Lord and Master, but there are two paths, by which conflict increases.

Ang 688

In Bhai Gurdass Vaars you will read that these two paths are those of the indian tradition and those of the semetic tradition.

The questions then leads us to; If these two major "religions" exist, what is the function of Guru Nanak ?

The popular saying then goes:

Nanak Shah Faqir, Hindu ka Guru, Musalman ka Pir.

meaning that Guru Nanak is the Guru that the Kalyug Veda mentions, and he is the Pir/Spiritual Teacher that these mystic groups of semetic religions get attain their knowledge from..

hence, The Gurus are functioned as the Spiritual Leaders of the Tariqa level of semetic and Indian religions,- for those who wish to go beyond Law and the exoteric, to dig into the core of the esoteric and Eternal Truth.

this is my view on Sikhism and its place in world religious history. The Message has existed since aad, but it was like a hidden treasure, and with the coming of Guru Nanak it was revealed openly to the World.

[Malwe Da Sher]

Going back to the first post, in my opinion viewpoint number 2 and number 4 can co-exist.

[tSingh]

The only problem is, if you give yourself only four options you'll find that to be your answer. That explanation you give above is clearly the answer Bahadaur Ali Shah has come to. There are numerous angles on this, not four. So for some nirmalay i've met they fall somewhere between two and a wee bit of four but in a more sophisticated manner than the positions above. Truth always existed, but the means to truth is shaped according to the context (yug dharma). Hence you can have continuity with prior yugas (as Bhai Gurdas certainly maintains in his explanation of waheguru mantr and Guru Arjun Dev Ji including the shabads of the bhats), yet in kalyug the most appropriate expression of yugdharma being gurmat. The implications of that are applicable to all traditions within kalyug...to varying degrees. Now, the danger of number four as you've presented it there is that Sikhi becomes very little (my value judgement of course) other than an appeal to reconsider the parent-tradition your born into in a new light. If that were entirely true you wouldn't anticipate there being philosophical, psychological, phenomenological consistency in the Guru's teachings...since it should actively avoid making hard and fast positions that might conflict with prior revealed tradition. It should simply express the truth as such in the most simplistic of terms without allowing for doctrinal demarkations. This is where this fourth theory falls apart. The samprdais have written masses of literature highlighting the consistency of gurmat updesh, thoroughly enlarging on the language of the Gurus and the sidhant (reasoned philosophical conclusions) it is based upon. Even James Massey's preliminary analysis of the language of Gurmat shows its to be largely based upon vaishnav terms for Parmatma (100s) and shaastra based terminlogy, compared to Islamic (maybe three islamic terms used for God?). Prior to that you have Bhai Gurdas Ji in his kabit svayay placing gurmat as the perfect darsana after having talked of the earlier schools of philosophy. He doesn't mention any continuity with Islamic schools of thought. Take for example Sidh Gosht. It is incredibly specific on certain philosophical and doctrinal angles. Is this a matt open to all monotheistic hindus and muslims? Clearly not sarguni vaishnavs for a start, or any muslim who doesn't accept the centrality of advaita nirgun mukti, the four fold division of consciousness, the role of karam, the emphasis on hari avtara, etc. This is as specific a matt as any other in India at that time. Guru Maharaj corrects the Naths, and provides specific adhyatmic clarification of their deliberately ambiguous metaphors. Specifically while grihasth dharma has highlighted chaar purushaarths, sikhi is primarily mokshartha alike vedanta in that sense. Alike vedanta, morality is defined in relation to that goal, through the pratically oriented yams and niyams. To conclude from that that Sikhi as it stands is not an autonomous tradition as such since it lacks formal codes of moral conduct, is to fundamentally fail to recognise what Sikhi is and to chain it to an semitic understanding of how a religion should work (turning it into a house of heresy that should be burned to the ground from what i hear!). How that worked practically is that like all traditions that existed in india at that time it worked at a level in which everyone could take something from it...but within that there were hierarchies of commitment to the specific nuances of Gurmat. We have bhagat jaidev and bhagat surdas shabads, yet those of their traditions would fundamentally disagree with the sidhant of gurmat. To my mind thats what we're talking about...and of course there are further opinions i've come across.

[gsingh00]

A little off topic, but given that the bani of sidh gost has come up in this thread, I'd like to ask if anyone knows of any in depth steeks of this bani by nirmalae. If anyone knows of one, please post it, and if possible, where it can be obtained from.

I know Sant Gyani Gurbachan Singh's katha of Sidh Gost is online, and I've listened to parts of it, but I was wondering if there is any indepth teeka of Sidh Gost.

[Guest]

some great posts guys, please keep them coming.

Sikhi is anadi- aad sach, jugad sach, hai bhi sach, nanak hosi bhi sach.

Since we are at this topic, i would like to share little audio clip from sant jagjit singh harkhowale katha:

Gurmat is Anadi:

http://www.gurmarag.net/SikhAwareness/Audi...0is%20anadi.mp3

For mahapursh there is no religious boundaries, their deb dristi is not mohtaaz for any socio-religious boundaries..for them avtars/devi/devta's from previous yugs are all sikhs- eg- ram, krishna, sita ji... listen to this small clip carefully.

Finally like to quote from that small clip- "Guru Nanak dev Daie Parkash Nuo kesha di pand tai "NA" koi ban sakda"... Vah Ji Vah

[tSingh]

you won't find it but Pandit Deva Singh Nirmala did a good tika on it. Generally the commonly available smparday steeks don't really go there enough with certain sections imho. I worked out the 'shun' bit for myself, and then last year found that it was in pandit deva singh's.

[drawrof]

I don't read tikkay, I just make it up as I go because guruji talks to me directly...

[antinang]

ok well this is sooo gona get blasted on here, but what the hoo?

(I would like to say it is not just akj who can be close minded)

Salvation Before Guru Nanak?

By Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh in “Gurmat”, September 1959

One friend has raised the doubt that if Satnaam (the true naam) has only been given by Guru Sahib and if humans can only be saved and liberated by Satnaam, how were humans liberated before the arrival of Guru Nanak Sahib jee?

It has been proven [in other books] through Gurmat principles that true salvation is only possible through Satnaam.

In reply to this, with the beat of a drum and in a thundering voice I say not once but hundreds of thousands of times that true salvation for humans and true liberation is only possible through Satnaam and this Satnaam has only been revealed by Satguru Nanak Sahib.

Sri Guru Nanak Dashmesh jee in his bani, Bachitar Natak has made it very clear that all those Avtars, Prophets etc. who came to this earth were sent by Akal Purakh for the salvation of humanity however, Guru Sahib has said about them:

ਸਭ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕਾਹੂ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥

Everyone placed his own interest first and foremost and did not comprehend God.

Also,

ਜੇ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਉਪਜਾਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨੇ ਰਾਹ ਚਲਾਏ ॥

All the great men created by me started their own paths.

And also,

ਜਿਨਿ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਨਿਕ ਸਿੱਧ ਕੋ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤਿਨ ਅਪਨਾ ਰਾਹੁ ਚਲਾਯੋ ॥

Whosoever attained a little spiritual power, he started his own path.

ਪਰਮੇਸਰ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਮਮ ਉਚਾਰਤੇ ਭਯੋ ਦਿਵਾਨਾ ॥੧੬॥

None could comprehend the Lord, but instead became mad, saying “I” (with ego)16.

ਪਰਮ ਤੱਤ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਆਪ ਆਪ ਭੀਤਰਿ ਉਰਝਾਨਾ ॥

Nobody recognized the Supreme Essence, but was entangled within himself.

Finally,

ਸਭ ਤੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ ॥੨੭॥

He caused all to utter his name and did not enshrine (driR) Satnaam of the Lord to anyone.27.

So this is clear from the words of Sri Nanak Dashmesh that ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਯੋ .

Before Satguru Nanak, Satnaam was not given and enshrined (driR) by anyone. How could they give it since this Satnaam was not obtained from the Dargah (court) of Akaal Purakh by anyone except Guru Nanak?

How could they obtain it since no one (none of the earlier prophets) cared about the true salvation of humanity? They were all just concerned about themselves. They became full of themselves because of the fact that they had heard a celestial voice tell them to help save humanity. [The voice] said that they were appointed leaders of men and with this they became egotistical. Only Guru Nanak-Dashmesh jee were saved from this egotistical way. Ah! With what amazing humility does Sri Guru Dashmesh jee say,

ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਬਾਚ ਇਸ ਕੀਟ ਪ੍ਰਤਿ ॥

The Words of Akaal Purakh to this insect:

And Akaal Purakh’s hukam is as such:

ਮੈ ਅਪਨਾ ਸੁਤ ਤੋਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜਾ ॥ ਪੰਥ ਪ੍ਰਚੁਰ ਕਰਬੇ ਕਹੁ ਸਾਜਾ ॥

I have appointed you as my son and hath created you for the propagation of the Panth

ਜਾਹਿ ਤਹਾਂ ਤੈ ਧਰਮੁ ਚਲਾਇ ॥ ਕਬੁਧਿ ਕਰਨ ਤੇ ਲੋਕ ਹਟਾਇ ॥੨੯॥

"You go therefore for the spread of Dharma (righteousness) and stop the people from foolish actions".29.

Look at the humility in Sri Dashmesh jee’s answer to this hukam of Akaal Purakh:

ਠਾਢ ਭਯੋ ਮੈ ਜੋਰਿ ਕਰ ਬਚਨ ਕਹਾ ਸਿਰ ਨਿਆਇ ॥

I stood up with folded hands and bowing down my head, I said:

ਪੰਥ ਚਲੈ ਤਬ ਜਗਤ ਮੈ ਜਬ ਤੁਮ ਕਰਹੁ ਸਹਾਇ ॥੩੦॥

"The Panth shall prevail in the world, when you give your assistance."30.

Satguru Nanak jee came, being sent from Akaal Purakh with the orders from Dargah, and whenever he came to perform the selfless task of offering salvation of the countless universes, Guru Baba did not do anything of his own will. He went to Sachkhand and took the orders from there and accepting Akaal Purakh as his Guru, took the Guru Deekhyaa (initiation). He took the true initiation deekhyaa and every time [he came], kept taking it.

Yes, he obtained the Gurmukh divine gift of nau-nidh naam gareebee. gurmuK pweI dwq ielwhI

Yes, bwbw pYDw sc KMf nOiniD nwm grIbI pweI]

Baba[Guru Nanak] reached Sachkhand wherefrom he received Naam, the storehouse of nine treasures and humility.

He set this example and continued to set it.

After obtained the true gift of Satnaam from the Lord’s Court, Guru Baba, Satguru Nanak Sachay Paatshaah distributed Satnaam to the human world. Not only on this land of Bharat (Hindustan) but in all directions of the world he sent out Satnaam.

gVH bgdwd invwiekY mkw mdInw sB invwXw]

After making Baghdad, the citadel (of pirs) bow, Mecca, Madina, and, all were humbled.

isD cOrwsIh mMflI Kt drSn pwKMf jxwXw]

He (Baba Nanak) exposed the eighty four siddhs and the hypocrisies of the six schools of Indian philosophy.

pwqwlW AwkwS lK ij`qI DrqI jgq sbwXw]

Hundreds of thousands of underworlds, the skies, earths and the whole world were conquered.

ijqI nvKMf mydnI sqnwm kw ckR iPrwXw]

Subjugating all the nine divisions of earth he established the cycle of Satnaam.

dyvdwno rwks dYNq sB icqR gupq sB crnI lwXw]

All the gods, demons, raksasa, daitys, Chitragupt et al. bowed at his feet.

ieMdRwsx Ap`CrW rwg rwgnI mMgl gwXw]

Indra and his nymphs sang auspicious songs in his praise.

BXw AnMd jgq ivic kil qwrn gur nwnk AwXw]

The whole world came into bliss as Guru Nanak came to save those in Kaljug

ihMdU muslmwn invwXw]

The Hindus and Muslims were all made to bow.

Not only this world, but hundreds of thousands of Universes and galaxies and planets were won by Satnaam. Yes! Guru Baba spun the chakar of Satnaam in hundreds of thousands of planets like ours and saved countless universes with the support of Satnaam.

Yes! It is true! He being koit bRhmMf ko Twkuru suAwmI srb jIAw kw dwqw ry ] Master of millions of universes, the Giver of all beings. He is the resident of countless universes and giver to countless beings.

He is the giver of the gift of jIA dwnu dy BgqI lwiein The gift of life and he is the one who attaches to Bhagti.

Scientists have discovered only now that in sky, in the stars we see, there are countless planets like ours and countless suns like our sun. It was regarding this that 500 years ago Satguru Nanak Dev said boldly

kyqy ieMd cMd sUr kyqy kyqy mMfl dys ]

So many Indras, so many moons and suns, so many worlds and lands.

Not only did he say this boldly, he made countless Gursikhs aware of the amazing giaan in Giaan Khand.

He showed the reality and scene of kyqy ieMd cMd sUr kyqy kyqy mMfl dys ] in clear form.

The research of scientists is yet very little and still not developed but Satguru Nanak showed Pir Dastgir’s son in the blink of an eye, all the hundreds and thousands of universes and galaxies. In the blink of an eye he took him on a trip through the galaxies and universes. To prove the truth of the vastness of creation to Pir Dastgir, who only believed in Islam’s 7 upper and nether regions, and to make him board the boat of true faith and belief, Guru Sahib did all this:

nwl lIqw bytw pIr dw AKIN mIt igAw hvweI]

Guru Nanak Dev taking along with him the son of the pir, melted into thin air.

lK AkwS pqwl lK AK Purk ivc sB idKlweI]

And in a wink of eye showed him the hundreds of thousands of upper and lower worlds.

And also,

Br kckOl pRSwd dw DuroN pqwloN leI kVwhI]

From the nether world he brought a cauldron full of parshaad and handed some over to the Pir

From this it is clear and proven that before offering salvation to this world, Satguru Nanak had spread the order and cycle of Satnaam in countless universes and galaxies and saved them. And Guru Baba’s Sangat in the nether worlds was enjoying Karah Parshad just like the sangat here does [it was from this sangat that Guru Sahib brought the karah parshad back for Pir Dastgir].

The lord of the entire creation cares about and is concerned for all his creation. And just like this, he is concerned about the goings on in each epoch.

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I dont expect many people here to believe it, but maybe one or two people may take something away. All the article is fully backed up by bani.

[amardeep]

Backed up by bani or not it does not mean that it is the right interpretation. Osama Bin Laden is probably also backing up his actions by Quranic verses but that does not mean that what he is doing is right.

in the Vaars of Bhai Gurdass and Bhatta di sawaiye you will read that many people before Guru Nanak has reached the highest stage of union with God, in this kalyug and other Yugas also. THe concept of union with God is to be found in many religions, this was nothing new.

and also on a site note, Islam also believes in thousands upon thousands of universes besides this and thousands upon thousands of humanities prior to ours..

I hope to see shaheediya, Niranjana, tsingh ,neo singh and others comment on the above article as i think you guys have much more knowledge on Dasam Bani and other religious traditions than a wrecked worm as myself..

[unbreakable]

..

[Matheen]

in the Vaars of Bhai Gurdass and Bhatta di sawaiye you will read that many people before Guru Nanak has reached the highest stage of union with God, in this kalyug and other Yugas also. THe concept of union with God is to be found in many religions, this was nothing new.

and also on a site note, Islam also believes in thousands upon thousands of universes besides this and thousands upon thousands of humanities prior to ours..

where? Kabir Ji openly says he is neither Hindu nor Muslim. Which other dharm has the concept of the Atma merging back with Parmatma?

Are you sure about Islam believing in 1000s of universes and 'humanities before ours'?

[unbreakable]

..

[amardeep]

Yes its wahdad al wujud in Islam, and in the Gita Krishna talks about people merging with him(Ie God)..... Jesus in the bible talks about becoming one with the Father as he himself was also one with the Father.

Bhai Gurdass;

Many are there who give exposition to the Muslim code of conduct (shariat) and many go on debating on the basis of tariqat, the methods of spiritual purification.

Myriad people have become famous by reaching the last stage of knowledge, the marfati and many in His divine Will have merged into the haqiqat, the truth.

Vaar8 pauri 8

In Islam there are 4 levels of spirituality, as there are 5 khands in Sikhism.

Shariat

Tariqat

Marfati

Haqiqat

The fourth is merging with Allah, and Bhai Gurdass here says many has merged with Haq whichi is a name of God.

also read the Sawayas of Guru Amardas which talks about a whole lot of people on Naam, who ALL lived before Guru Nanak

http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.g...16&id=59286

regarding universes and prior humanities in Islam it is to be found in the hadiths

"Perhaps you think God has not created a humanity other than you. No! I swear to God that He has created thousands upon thousands of mankinds and you are the last among them."

"Like this world there are 70,000 other planets with each of their peoples believing they are alone in the universe."

"I cannot say that there are human beings in other worlds, but I can say that there are living beings, whom we cannot see because of the great distance between us."

-Bihar al Anwar, vol 14, p 79

"Before this Adam, there were a thousand thousand Adams." By Imam Jafar Sadiq

-Bihar Al Anwar, Volume 2, Part (Baa, as in the second letter of the Arabic Alphabet)