Khargh Singh Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 These modern day sikhs are too violent and think murder is ok. Not like the olden days, I mean violence has never occured in sikh history at all and sikhs have never murdered anyone ever. Not even massa ranghar. I heard he died because Methab Singh told him off, true sikhs wouldnt murder anyone would they. Especially as it was against the law at the time to kill a government official. Damn these crazy murderous sikhs! Lets all buy dasies and make pretty little chains!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1santkhalsa Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 i'm with khargh singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drawrof Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I believe I can fly, I believe I can touch the sky..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matheen Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Not even massa ranghar. I heard he died because Methab Singh told him off,.... You being sarcastic or do you really believe that? There is a difference between murder and righting a wrong. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 Neo , me is waitning for an answer to my earlier question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malwe Da Sher Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 I think about it every night and day, spread my wings and fly away.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest wu Posted January 22, 2008 Report Share Posted January 22, 2008 i believe i can soar.....i see me running through that open door.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antinang Posted January 23, 2008 Report Share Posted January 23, 2008 SIKHS BELIEVE IN SACHEE SARKAR ONLY! I believe Maharaj di fauj in Mughal times would have been considered terrorists, do you not? Offcourse we should be diplomatic and present ourselves in a respectable way, but in some cases the truth is the truth as harsh as it sounds. Some of Sant Jarnail Singh Ji's quotes are mindblowing in terms of how they would sound to outsiders, while at the same time you can look at how well he answered the questions in the interview with the English man. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 exactly. neo can you plz answer this question whichi asked over a week ago in realtion to you abve comment. duz this apply to namdharis as well? Thank you . Your smaller brother. chatanga 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 28, 2008 Report Share Posted January 28, 2008 neo can you plz answer this question whichi asked over a week ago in realtion to you abve comment. duz this apply to namdharis as well? Thank you . Your smaller brother. chatanga It all comes down to malice intentions. If someone has malice intentions to hurt sikhi sentiments by doing parchar against sri guru granth sahib then we have every right to respond. However in this case, namdharis dont have malice intentions to hurt sikhi sentiments. They sincerly belive and have faith in their history yet they hold firm beleive in shabad guru because they dont recite anything from their guru's but from shabad guru in form of sri guru granth sahib ji, sri dasam granth sahib .. as far as their history being distorted or not thats besides the point because scholars of both sides can argue either way and points from both sides are valid because they are quoting from rehitnamas which many non- namdharis sikhs use to prove their own beleif..anyway regardless it all comes to malice intentions. Namdharis believe in baba ram singh ji is alive is equally valid as taksali beleive sant jarnail singh ji alive and chardi-kalah. Namdharis belive in sri guru gobind singh ji gave physical gur gaddi to their guru yet holding firm beleive in shabad guru is equally valid as samparda's beleive in guru maharaj gave seva to so and so mahapursh to further flourish the lineage/seed(planted by guru themselves), is equally valid as samparda (taksali, bedis, nirmale, nihangs) beleive in lineages chart which mahapursh are some what seen bhramgyanis karaks ie- nit avtars of sri guru nanak dev ji. Now i dont have problem with that one bit, its just m showing you subtle similiar elements between samparda's and namdhari panth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1santkhalsa Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 when you ask a namdhari whos your guru = satguru jagjit singh when you ask a darshan dassi whos your guru = maharaj tarlochan daas when you ask a nirankari whos your guru = satguru hardev singh when you ask a radhaswami whos your guru = Maharaj Gurinder Singh Ji Maharaj when you ask a sacha sauda premi whos your guru = Satguru Ram Raheem Singh Ji when you ask a bhaniare vala chela whos your guru = Guru Pyara Singh when you ask a true GURSIKH whos your guru = SRI GURU GRANTH SAHIB JI Thats the difference - simple as that 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Neo, I dont think that the Darshan Dases had any malice towards sikhi. then again do radha swami or the like. they dont say we hate Guru nanak or stuff like that. they just dont beleeive ii Guru Granth as Guru. Now if a RS or DD or nirankari, say we belive that our Guru is the succesor Guru to Guru Nanak then of course we gonna reply as you said. But even if the Namdharis dont have any malicious intenetions , we still have the right to respond. why should we not respond to one and to the other? cos the others belive in some respect for the shabad? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xylitol Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Actually, I do believe Radhasoami gurus have some malicious intentions towards Sikhi. Now, if they just had different beliefs wrt spirituality that would be fine. I've read books by Sant Kirpal Singh, an RS Guru, and in his text he calls Amrit a spiritually empty ritual and denigrates the concept of shabad Guru, claiming a physical Guru is necessary. Everyone has the right to their beliefs, but with RS I do believe it's meant to weaken Sikhi. They teach that what's on the outside doesn't matter (ie punj kakaars) but the RS gurus all take on the appearance of Sikh saroop to pull in more sikhs. For example, Charan Singh gave gaddi to his nephew Gurinder singh. When Gurinder Singh was chosen he stopped cutting his hair and beard and began wearing a turban. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 RS is a cult. Anyone who tells you that your parvaar will perish if you share the secret mantar with anyone is a con artist. Secondly, in my experience RS mock Sikhs for believing in Shabd Guru and "bowing to a book". Same goes for Sant Nirankari - a cult, exemplified by the infamous cult leader - Gurbachan Singh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsingh00 Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Neo, even most missionaries dont have malice intentions...they just happen to have messed up beliefs. If you are going to say that intentions is all that matters, then perhaps you should rethink the shariapanthi, fanatic, extremist, tatkhalsa fanatic labels. I think you can even make a case that Ram raiay didn't have malice intentions, they just got conned into following ram rai. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 29, 2008 Report Share Posted January 29, 2008 Neo, even most missionaries dont have malice intentions...they just happen to have messed up beliefs. If you are going to say that intentions is all that matters, then perhaps you should rethink the shariapanthi, fanatic, extremist, tatkhalsa fanatic labels. I think you can even make a case that Ram raiay didn't have malice intentions, they just got conned into following ram rai. I dont have to re-think anything bro. Whatever i say i ponder upon twice or more before i say anything: I dont want to make this an namdhari debate, if my post did, this wasnt intention. Before i cut and paste few points i manage to point out earlier in observation regarding namdharis Few misconceptions hope to clear way- people make it sound they deliberatly change the history same hinduphobia/rss the fact rss wasnt even there that time when they happen to misinterpret the history. on the issue of sri guru gobind singh ji disappearing- i genuninely think this beleif sir guru gobind singh ji being aloop was common around that time sri guru gobind singh ji did not hide but went Aloop(gupt) and people had no doubts that sri guru granth sahib ji was given gurship in hazoor sahib, sri guru gobind singh ji body being aloop it orginally came from nander, where still there is still an beleif in hazoor sahib ji- nobody could find sri guru gobind singh ji pavitar sirar, its was aloop, this account is very common within sachkhand hazoor sahib, there was angeeta(pyre) but body was not found. Now issue sri guru gobind singh ji coming back as in baba balak singh ji. I dont think this beleif sri guru gobind singh came as baba balak was an act of person to cause divisions within panth, i dont think this was malicous act but an honest misinterpertations of people which turned into firm beleif now. You know if 100 people call false- true, they geniunely started thinking that as a gospel truth, same deal here. Its a major misconception that they do beadhi of sri guru granth sahib ji- shabad guru, they may not follow 100 percent outer parkash maryada(which is sad because they used to in all namdharis gurdwaras as per picture shown by namdhari freind-gursev aka cybersingh) but regardless gurbani is on their lips both gurbani from sri guru granth sahib ji and sri dasam granth sahib ji. I dont find anything wrong with their emphasis more on shabad guru than physical form of guru. After all our main aim is to merge with nirankar with shabad guru. What is bani? Sri guru maharaj says: Vaho Vaho Bani Nirankar Hai || Shabad Guru Surat Dhun Chela They fully beleive that bani is only link with Nirankar. All their nitneem, naam simran all comes from sri guru granth sahib ji and sri dasam granth. They fully beleive in concept of shabad guru. Even physical form of guru which is physical sri guru granth sahib is there to show you inside essence which is shabad guru. I dont have problem with them putting more emphasis on shabad guru which they do in their daily nitneem and monthly akhand patts. Only problem i have and i will ever have with namdharis is the sri gobind singh ji successcor lineage issue- i firmly beleive sri guru gobind singh passed his gurgaddi to sri guru granth sahib ji but they do otherwise, and i respect their beleif, leave that differences aside like all the other samparda's do and live like brothers. Looking at the sad state of affairs right now modern days groups rejecting dasam bani, bhai gurdas ji varan , bhagata di bani, samparda's, doing nindya of real sants.. I appreciate namdharis more than them for keeping traditions alive along with nihangs and nirmale. Traditions like- Sri dasam granth akhand patt, gurmat sangit maryada, observing daily strict bibek nitneem maryada. I do agree with namdhari gurmat sangeet have hindu classical music influence however this still does not negate- puratan reetiyan, promotion of classical instruments they have perserved seena-basina. my 2nd post on namdharis: I fully beleive in that, baba ram singh ji ji wrote letters that said that he was not a GURU, but you have to remember, all the great mahapursh from namdhari samparda they dont consider themselves Guru poran Avtar unlike radhaswami guru who twist gurbani to suit their own needs (eg- anand sahib puri on sant sajan bhai sarsaie ) or mock amrit sanchar intiation, or mock sri guru gobind singh potrait by sobha singh. Namdharis fully beleive in shabad guru in tri form- aad guru granth sahib, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth and dont have any their rest of guru's writing nor their claim that is gurbani but anmol bachan. Radhaswamis have pick and choose gurbani to suit their own needs(they claim guru amar das ji refered to their dera- sarsa in anand sahib), they add their guru's writing and claim it gurbani, they are simply creationg of arya samajis, in this regard- namdharis are far better more align with samparda's than radhaswamis who are heretic group. - Namdharis follow strict amrit vela maryada, akhand patt maryada both sri guru granth sahib ji and sri dasam granth sahib ji, all are strict keshadaris, whereas radhaswami don't since they pick and choose from idealogy of sikhs. - Namdharis traditions seems more consisent from their guru's to guru's than radhaswamis, traditions like- gurmat sangeet reetiyan going back to guru sahib time, naam dridh akhand patt of sri guru granth sahib ji, sri dasam granth sahib, chandi di var pats. Radhaswamis traditions gets changed as soon they have new guru. - Namdharis have amrit sanchar intiation with panj singhs giving amrit and gupt naam which is vahiguroo anyway no mixture of mantars like radhaswamis pick one from gurbani and rest add their own, mix khalsa intiations and add their own- recent-pink sarbat which was outrageous too see. - Namdharis especially their guru's in bhaini sahib had sri guru granth sahib ji fully parkash, i saw that picture myself which my freind showed, satkar was fully given, they all matha taik to first their guru then shabad guru because for them their guru is their ishat dev, gurbani is shabad guru in tri form.. i really wish all the namdharis gurudwara should have parkash of sri guru granth sahib as bhaini sahib, as i saw myself in the picture.. i am willing to even scan picture if people like to see. - Namdharis as a group have always sided with khalsa panth from the history with an exception of 1984 time, they have always sided with sarbat khalsa- attain shaheediya read their history, help implement sgpc maryada which many sikhs followed -Massive amrit khalsa parchar by baba ram singh ji when khalsa was at its miniroty. Baba Ram Singh Ji did parchar just like how Sant Attar Singh Ji Mausantaewale did Parchar. - Namdhari movement against british (ferengi) was one of biggest movements along with akali nihangs movemements as well baba bir singh ji nurangabad , baba maharaj singh ji nurangabda movements against british. It wasnt gandhi who introduced an boycott of british it was baba ram singh ji. - Numerous shaheediya contribute to khalsa panth by namdhari singhs- http://www.sikh-heritage.co.uk/Martyrs/Nam...NamShaheeds.htm -namdharis were invited along with nirmal, udasi, nihang, taksali , akj to implement an maryada. All the takth jathedars along with most sampardava's- nirmal/nihangs/udasi/sevapanthis, master tara singh, sri singh sahib yogi bhajan, bhai avtar singh ji raagi also have immense respect for namdharis. Sri hazoor sahib jathedar had immense respect for baba ram singh ji namdhari. Namdharis are not heretic far from it, true they have innocently little misguided on lineage issue in my view, everything else they do, beleive, read, interact with is very much sikhi. In addition to that: List of very promenint members of sikh panth have no problem with namdhari sikh jatha and its existence as long they do their stuff subtly and not interefe in sikh internal affairs(takths). The Kukas, a branch of the Khalsa Panth. have shot into prominence during the last thirty years* or so. In the ecstasy of the Sabad, they are rapturously forgetful of themselves, oblivious of their headgears falling off. They are precisely and eminently designated as Namdharis, though because of their loud cries, they are commonly known as Kukas, Except for their turbans falling off, they remain well within the approved tradition. - Sooraj Prakhash Granth by Mahaan Kavi Santhok Singh Ji Especially when bhai kahn singh nabha writes: "When the Sikhs, the Nihangs, Sehaj Dhari, Nirmalla's, Namdharis, and Udasi's see themselves as the sons of the same father. The Gurudwara reform movement would be over". - All Puratan samparda mahapursh have good relations with namdharis. There are sakhiya/pictures proving this point: - Bhai Avtar Singh Ji Raagi - Sri Singh Sahib Harbhajan SIngh Yogi(3ho) - Gurcharan Singh Tohra - Sant Jawala SIngh Ji harkhowale - Sant isher singh ji rara sahib - Sant waryam singh ji ratwara sahib - Nanaksarwale sant. So equating namdharis with radhaswamis/nirankars/gurmeet ram rahim is an insult since there is zeman-asman farak between namdharis and radhaswamis/nirankaris/gurmeet ram rahim. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1santkhalsa Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 You can make a song and dance about it but the essence is they believe a human being is their Guru and true Gursikhs believe Sri Guru Granth Sahib to be their Guru... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaheediyan Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 "Namdharis fully beleive in shabad guru in tri form- aad guru granth sahib, sri dasam granth, sri sarbloh granth" Sri Sarbloh Granth Sahib? Are you sure? "- All Puratan samparda mahapursh have good relations with namdharis. There are sakhiya/pictures proving this point: - Bhai Avtar Singh Ji Raagi - Sri Singh Sahib Harbhajan SIngh Yogi(3ho) - Gurcharan Singh Tohra" I think you need to be careful veerji, I don't think many people would class the above as "Puratan samparda mahapursh", I certainly wouldn't. Although Bhai Avtar Singh Ji was an inspirational bibekhi Gursikh (for those that spent time with him) and a great Raagi. There's no point wasting time on Rehit Police like 1santkhalsa. The very reason they could only get jobs in the Rehit Police was there incapacity to think and reason, as is shown by his disinterest and lack of mature response to your post. I wouldn't be surprised if he is one of the uneducated louts who thought it was funny to beat up a Namdhari bajurg (in front of his wife and children) who was paying his respects to Maharaj at Singh Sabha gurdwara in Southall last year, or a member of the same stupid AK47 gang (barely out their nappies) who thought it was brave insulting and bullying Namdhari school girls. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 I think you need to be careful veerji, I don't think many people would class the above as "Puratan samparda mahapursh", I certainly wouldn't. Although Bhai Avtar Singh Ji was an inspirational bibekhi Gursikh (for those that spent time with him) and a great Raagi. sorry my comment was meant for latter personalities i listed there 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 neo in your abov epost you say all these jathe were invited to implement or discuss maryada ,i assume this was in the 1940s or 50s when a "central " maryada was being framed. Sant Gurbachan Singh stated clearly that the views of the Taksal were NEVER solicited for this event. anyways your post about the merits of the namdharis is very interesting. But i still feel that if you have the right to respond to 1 group about Guru Ship then it should be for all. Malice or no malice. Just go about it in different ways. the attacks on namdharis ( which i have never heard of ) are crazy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted January 30, 2008 Report Share Posted January 30, 2008 I wouldn't be surprised if he is one of the uneducated louts who thought it was funny to beat up a Namdhari bajurg (in front of his wife and children) who was paying his respects to Maharaj at Singh Sabha gurdwara in Southall last year, or a member of the same stupid AK47 gang (barely out their nappies) who thought it was brave insulting and bullying Namdhari school girls. never heard that before...absolutely pathetic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1santkhalsa Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 I love the way I've made no statement about beating up bazurags, women or children which is ALL WRONG AND ABSOLUTELY PATHETIC. My only point is that the concept of a dehdhari Guru has no place in Gursikhi... I like the way Sheediyan can accuse me of being a woman-beater and thug but the Sikh awareness staff do NOTHING??? Yet if i was to say the same about him there would be a warning coming my way My only point was - 'sabh sikhan ko HUKAM hai guru maneyo granth.' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 What would you say regarding the "Gur shabad" Guru that Bhai Nand Lal talks about in his prashan uttar, that is,- the status of Guru is given on the Gursikh that has understood and follows the teachings of the Granth.. which someone refers to as Vidiya Guru nowadays 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 yeh, thats pretty bad saying that jus cos sant khalsa dont beleive in dehdharis or anything that you ahve labeled him as a rehit pulsia. nex yule say that just cos i support Khalistan that i must have agreed with taking people off buses and shooting them. all i will say to that is " I AINT GETTIN ON NO PLANE!!!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyhp32 Posted February 2, 2008 Report Share Posted February 2, 2008 The problem is that if you a rigid viewpoint even if it is in line with Sikh tradition/ history then you will always been seen as an extremist by some people. Whether it's Khalistan - Raj Karega Khalsa or a Dehdhari Guru - Sabh Sikhan Ko Hukum Hai some people will always try and liberalise the tradition in order to make your view the extreme one. Raj Karega Khalsa then become the rule of the 'pure' meaning any person who is 'pure' whether he is Sikh, Hindu, Muslim etc. Then you become the extremist because you only equate Khalsa with Amritdhari Sikh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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