CdnSikhGirl

Wow an artist I pencil sketch but not so much into painting. I studied graphic arts though before I got into the military. But... I just realized, I have been using your painting of Mai Bhago as my cell phone wallpaper for a long time now

Btw, this is what I consider nature photography... I also took this here locally in Halifax Canada... (I consider landscapes to be well... landscapes haha)

After seeing some discussions on the other threads about atma, soul and God within us and God in Gurus, maybe some further discussion is helpful.

Kabirji says the same thing about how we rant on and on about our Mind and soul, whilst at the same time using this mind's intellect in doing so!

ਜੀਉ ਏਕੁ ਅਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
Jī▫o ek ar sagal sarīrā.
There is One Soul, and it pervades all bodies.

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੯॥੧॥੩੬॥
Is man ka▫o rav rahe kabīrā. ||9||1||36||
Kabeer dwells upon this Mind. ||9||1||36||


Jio/atma/soul/ are the same thing.
These last pangtis (the jio ek ar sagal sareera) come after a number that are contemplating the MIND and questioning the mann.
they say........

ਸਨਕਾਦਿਕ ਨਾਰਦ ਮੁਨਿ ਸੇਖਾ ॥
Sankāḏik nāraḏ mun sekẖā.
Even sages like Sanak and Naarad, and the thousand-headed serpent,

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖਾ ॥੩॥
Ŧin bẖī ṯan mėh man nahī pekẖā. ||3||
did not see the mind within the body. ||3||

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਕੋਈ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
Is man ka▫o ko▫ī kẖojahu bẖā▫ī.
Anyone can search for this mind, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਤਨ ਛੂਟੇ ਮਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੪॥
Ŧan cẖẖūte man kahā samā▫ī. ||4||
When it escapes from the body, where does the mind go? ||4||

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਨਾਮਾਂ ॥
Gur parsādī jaiḏe▫o nāmāʼn.
By Guru's Grace, Jai Dayv and Naam Dayv

ਭਗਤਿ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥੫॥
Bẖagaṯ kai parem in hī hai jānāʼn. ||5||
came to know this, through loving devotional worship of the Lord. ||5||

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਨਹੀ ਆਵਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
Is man ka▫o nahī āvan jānā.
This mind does not come or go.

ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੬॥
Jis kā bẖaram ga▫i▫ā ṯin sācẖ pacẖẖānā. ||6||
One whose doubt is dispelled, knows the Truth. ||6||

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ਕਾਈ ॥
Is man ka▫o rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā kā▫ī.
This mind has no form or outline.

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੂਝਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੭॥
Hukme ho▫i▫ā hukam būjẖ samā▫ī. ||7||
By God's Command it was created; understanding God's Command, it will be absorbed into Him again. ||7||

ਇਸ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਕੋਈ ਜਾਨੈ ਭੇਉ ॥
Is man kā ko▫ī jānai bẖe▫o.
Does anyone know the secret of this mind?

ਇਹ ਮਨਿ ਲੀਣ ਭਏ ਸੁਖਦੇਉ ॥੮॥
Ih man līṇ bẖa▫e sukẖ▫ḏe▫o. ||8||
This mind shall merge into the Lord, the Giver of peace and pleasure. ||8||
Kabirji is talking about the mind
He is saying "jio ek sagal sareera" because of what we do with our MIND....
You see we all say there is One God, Christians say it, jews say it, muslims say it....
The whole world around Kabirji is talking about the ONE God....just like they do today....but that's it...All talk , chatter,... discuss..but no real uddam or efforts to find Him.

All using their Mind's intellect to discuss the ONE parbrahm.......he is everywhere, in everything...but that's it !......how about experiencing ?

Remember that in gurbani it also mentions a few times....we are like different pots of clay with the same water inside.......just differently decorated on the outside but the inside has the same jal
....yet our mind's attach that same Water/Ji/ God/atma soul to the body and repeatedly discuss...discuss.... and wonder where is mind from, where does it go......etc...

In light of this, Kabirji is telling us 'WAKE UP'' because that same God-soul/water is right inside you.

No good just discussing....Do bhakti and GO WITHIN, find him right inside yourself.
We can carry on discussing until life end, but it is NO USE unless you make the effort to find that SAME God-soul that is INSIDE ALL of us.
God SOUL is very close and within us but by going around discussing and doing Mann vichaar of saying "Yes of course God is inside all of us" we are attaching and associating the Mind to the outer maya with discussions....which leads to EGO. ...We have to find ways of dissociating with this instead.
By associating we make a distinctive line showing MIND is separate from ATMA,,,and this makes the duality....the same Ego.

Simply put ,GOD + EGO= us individuals...manukhs,.. the pots with the water
If You go WITHIN and start doing bakti, then slowly you will start to merge bit by bit and in doing so, begin to shed that EGO, layer by layer..
then in simple math......... GOD - (minus) EGO = God, pure atma, sachkhand...where no ego or identity of mind remains. The mind is jyot saroop.
I said above that Kabirji's "Ji-o ek sagal sarira" is a WAKE-UP to us since, he is saying Kao-rav rahe..to dwell upon this Ji-o Ik in our body, rather than discussing the mind as in the prior pangtis.

ਜੀਉ ਏਕੁ ਅਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
Jī▫o ek ar sagal sarīrā.
There is One Soul, and it pervades all bodies.

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੯॥੧॥੩੬॥
Is man ka▫o rav rahe kabīrā. ||9||1||36||
Kabeer dwells upon this Mind. ||9||1||36||


With regards to this wake up, he finishes the shabad on this line and continues with raag gwaarayree with...

ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ॥
Gauree Gwaarayree:

ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਏਕ ਨਾਮ ਜੋ ਜਾਗੇ ॥
Ahinis ek nām jo jāge.
Those who are awake to the One Name, day and night -

ਕੇਤਕ ਸਿਧ ਭਏ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Keṯak siḏẖ bẖa▫e liv lāge. ||1|| rahā▫o.
many of them have become Siddhas - perfect spiritual beings - with their consciousness attuned to the Lord. ||1||Pause||

How are they awake ?? don't their bodies sleep ??..
Yes, the bodies sleep, but the water inside the pot is always jagat,
The Atma soul is untouchable and remains the active force of the universe, no matter what it is cased in.
They have merged their Mann Chit - mind consciousness with the EK Atma-soul inside them.
And How would they do that ?
answer - Bhakti, just like perfect siddhas.

Wow an artist I pencil sketch but not so much into painting. I studied graphic arts though before I got into the military. But... I just realized, I have been using your painting of Mai Bhago as my cell phone wallpaper for a long time now

Btw, this is what I consider nature photography... I also took this here locally in Halifax Canada... (I consider landscapes to be well... landscapes haha)

I have throughout my life had many out of body experiences... so yes I have experienced beyond the physical... from the age of 8. I have also encountered others... I know of several distinct 'realms' or levels... above the physical. Etheric, which is part of the physical and extends past it, but dies with it like a shell of sorts. If you travel to this realm you experience the physical world in real time, but obviously not with your physical body. Them astral level which is much more dream like and mystical in quality. I can only describe it as 'seeing sound and hearing colour' if that makes sense. Everything is frequency so you interpret it differently than in the physical. These experiences were what launched me on the path that ultimately ended up here.

Regarding lakes... obviously all water is clear... but the colours are filtered differently, and yes the sky is the influence. You know, there is a lake in Ladakh region of Kashmir it's a high altitude lake on the border of China and India called Pangong. Its in an area that you have to have special permission to visit. I was lucky to have gotten to see it in Sept just past. You won't believe me if I told you the colour... so I will just post a pic Yes... it's really this colour in person!

"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

... Because this world is so convincing, and the ego identity so strong that we have become so immersed within this character we are playing. It's not just the illusion of the world around us.., it's the illusion of our own identity. It's hard to let go of the 'I' that we think we are. We are programmed to think that if the 'I' ceases to exist... That's it we die and there's nothing left. But it's not the 'I' that Is Experiencing... The doer the experiencer exists independent of the 'I' that we think is our identity. But out of fear, we just can't seem to let go of the 'I'

"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

... Because this world is so convincing, and the ego identity so strong that we have become so immersed within this character we are playing. It's not just the illusion of the world around us.., it's the illusion of our own identity. It's hard to let go of the 'I' that we think we are. We are programmed to think that if the 'I' ceases to exist... That's it we die and there's nothing left. But it's not the 'I' that Is Experiencing... The doer the experiencer exists independent of the 'I' that we think is our identity. But out of fear, we just can't seem to let go of the 'I'

"Have you ever had a dream, Neo, that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?"

... Because this world is so convincing, and the ego identity so strong that we have become so immersed within this character we are playing. It's not just the illusion of the world around us.., it's the illusion of our own identity. It's hard to let go of the 'I' that we think we are. We are programmed to think that if the 'I' ceases to exist... That's it we die and there's nothing left. But it's not the 'I' that Is Experiencing... The doer the experiencer exists independent of the 'I' that we think is our identity. But out of fear, we just can't seem to let go of the 'I'

Lucky you said the same thing as I did, just in different words!




I don't know why people find this so hard to grasp???

Lucky you said the same thing as I did, just in different words!




I don't know why people find this so hard to grasp???

Not sure why you guys complicate things and cause confusion.....

In the most simplest explanation that I can give -
First,..We ALL have a soul/atman, this is the pure God soul in all of us.,...it is the drop of the ocean...these same atmas, make up the complete paramatma.

HOWEVER, we are here because it is all the game of the MIND..(the mann)

Our mind's are engrossed in maya,...controlled by 5 dhut......not listening to the Atma.
You see, we have a choice whereby we can let the MIND be the master of the soul and let it run free and run the conduct...which makes us manmukh and in complete man-mat.
OR We can make effort to still that running Mind and try to 'merge' it with the ATMA.
This is when the ATMA/PARAMATMA becomes the master of the Mind instead. It then runs all the conduct and one is in gur-mat.

So, the goal for conducting ourselves is to always keep trying to let the Atma/Soul be the master of the mind. But we have to make this same decision using the maya enveloped mind ......so, the REAL IDEA is to.............

.. keep trying to merge and merge this Mind with Atma ..so that it all becomes ONE and the SAME.
This is the 'merging' gurbani talks about.
This is how the MIND recognizes it' origin(mool) and becomes Jyot Saroop...(Mann tu Jyot Saroop hai, apna mool pehchaan)

To conclude,.. understand that YES, we all have the same ATMA-God soul within us.
BUT the GURUS had their MIND'S that COMPLETELY merged in their ATMA,
Their Minds did not have a single ounce of influence from Maya or worldly body.... which is why they could just sit and smile on a hot plate because their ATMA was untouchable.

When Mind is in Maya, that is when it feels pain,joy,sadness, anxiety, worry.....
When Mind is One and the Same merged with Atma,, then it feels none of these, because it is dissociated from body and it's maya surroundings.. Sitting on a hot plate is no pain or torture whatsoever because the atma is unharmed.

We have our Mind's slightly merged here and there, or just a little divine feeling of oneness now and again because our Minds are under heavy influences of 5 dhut and maya.
So, we understand nowhere near about the Atma inside us as the Gurus and some bhagats whose Minds were absorbed in completeness.

quite simply....
GURU= ATMA+MIND are all MERGED into ONE and the same.
Me and You= ATMA + MIND are separate....hence the duality and the ego..

Not only are the humans, part of God; everything that exists, is a part of God.

Peace

How do we know he did 'not allow' women???

All we know is that in oral history, it was passed down that there were no women. Maybe none ever volunteered?? Maybe those women did not want to do that seva?

And here we are again back to the menial task of cooking for women... hahahah seems cooking, serving men and cleaning and having babies is all we are good for.

It doesn't mean he did not allow them. Did you hear him personally say that no women could??? Did anyone for that matter? Is it written anywhere by Guru Ji that he specifically SAID women were not allowed??? I challenge you to show me!

He DID however, write his 52 hukams AFTER 1699, in which he contained all the important points... yet if this was such an important thing to him to discriminate against women... then why did he not include a statement restricting women???

Absence of proof is NOT proof of absence!!!
Just because we have no evidence that it DID happen, is NOT proof that it was not ALLOWED to happen!! It very well COULD have happened! There COULD have been women as Panj Pyares. Do we even know much about the Panj Pyares after the first day? Who were they etc? How do we know for sure none ever had women? History could have been written to say 'five Sikhs' in which case we'd never know. Or men who had something against women, could have chosen to not specifically state women participated. We will never know. But absence of proof is not proof of absence. The only way wed know for sure is if SGGSJ says something about restricting women (which it doesn't) or if Guru Ji had written to restrict women in his 52 Hukams (which he didn't). I think that leaves it pretty open ended! ALl else is speculation... by MEN!

Further he said "Whenever and wherever five baptised Sikhs come together, the Guru would be present" not five sikh men...

And once again... Panth was given authority to make decisions... so SRM is valid!

Speaking of Landscape... this is one of my fav shots I ever took. It's in Kashmir, India (somewhere in Ladakh region). I didn't want to bring the SLR so I picked up a Fuji HS50 EXR which operates and feels exactly like an SLR (even has phase detect combo with contrast for autofocus), but the lens is fixed but it covers effective 24-1000 mm range! It's a great cam for travelling with. Obviously not as clear and crisp as dedicated lenses, but I didn't want to carry 20 Lbs of gear everywhere plus if I happened to lose or break this cam the total loss would only been ~ 450 CDN.

WJKK WJKF,

Forgive me for saying but you are now grasping... I will follow the SRM because it stands the test of agreeing with SGGSJ. GRM does not. SGGSJ does not anywhere state that women should be restricted or controlled by men in any way or play less of a role in Sikhism than men. In fact it encourages the opposite. It also states that the same light is in both equally. That same light of God is in both genders equally. It also says gender / this body is transitory. A part of the illusion. Only when we can see past these physical shells will we spiritually progress. Unfortunately too many Singhs are stuck in their gender identities (Ego) to get past it and recognize that SAME divine light in all equally.

You can choose to follow RMs that focus instead more on the phsyical shells. I'll follow the RM that sees every soul as equal.

Speaking of Landscape... this is one of my fav shots I ever took. It's in Kashmir, India (somewhere in Ladakh region). I didn't want to bring the SLR so I picked up a Fuji HS50 EXR which operates and feels exactly like an SLR (even has phase detect combo with contrast for autofocus), but the lens is fixed but it covers effective 24-1000 mm range! It's a great cam for travelling with. Obviously not as clear and crisp as dedicated lenses, but I didn't want to carry 20 Lbs of gear everywhere plus if I happened to lose or break this cam the total loss would only been ~ 450 CDN.

Acccording to my understanding, In order to understand such deep subject, relative and absolute truth/realities are given in gnosis of all religions:

Absolute Truth(Nirgun-Pure Divine Knowledge-Bhramgyan) and Relative Truth(Sargun-Devotional):

From Absolute truth perspective (Nirgun)- Nanak parbhram is not form or dual being or dual icon, its

-unchanged non dual(Advai purkh) state of absolute truth experienced in meditation (full never ending spontaneous abidance in it its liberation-bhramgyan)-

-its absolute truth- its all pervading god, god in all, all in God which Gurbani call various names- Vahiguru/Ikongkar/Nirankar/Parbhram/Niranjan/Advait- Ekankar/
Zeman Zaman bhikie Ek Jot hai- (Supreme soul) which is everyone and everything,

-its pure unconditioned awareness- its unchanged state of absolute supreme state (Sehaj Nirvakalp Non transcendental ) ALIVE JOT(Pure knowledge) which is already present in one in all, all in one- which is described in Jaap sahib by sri guru gobind singh ji-

Achal Morat Anubhav Parkash Amitooj Khiijaie || (Achal Morat -Pure unconditioned thoughtless awareness -Anubhav Parkash - Intuitive spontaneous infinite ocean of divine knowledge- Bhramgyan Amitoj Khijaie - All effulgence, non-descript Ocean)


From Relative truth perspective (Sargun)- Nanak parbhram which appeared in 1469 in form which is pure perfection expression of divine came in this earth to provide calmness to lava burning earth of five vices, taking people across from worldly ocean to absolute truth.

Before we box above two things into conceptual mind, it has to relate to one experience, which reality resonates more with one individually thats individual feeling, some will be naturally drawn to sargun devotional saroop of nanak- iconic/figure/being but some will be naturally drawn to gyan saroop of nanak which is all prevading god, god in all, all in god which also means you are that absolute reality as well equally.

Satguru nanak ultimate saroop is nirgun saroop which is undivided one non dual god (all in one, one in all) as thats the source- its seed bij- thats seed form appeared from seed and disappeared back into seed.

ChzS1ngh said it perfectly in a different post...

ChzS1ngh said it perfectly in a different post...

This should clarify on what we are really are- According to sri guru gobind singh ji

Also bachan by sri guru gobind singh ji in sri dasam granth sahib- gyan parbodh: ਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥ उचरिओ आतमा परातमा संग ॥ उतभुज सरूप अबिगत अभंग ॥ The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible; ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥ इह कउन आहि आतमा सरूप ॥ जिह अमित तेज अतिभूति बिभूति ॥२॥१२७॥ What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127. ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥ परातमा बाच ॥ The Higher Soul said: ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥ यहि ब्रहम आहि आतमा राम ॥ जिह अमित तेजि अबिगत अकाम ॥ This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless. ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥ जिह भेद भरम नहीं करम काल ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र सरबा दिआल ॥३॥१२८॥ Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228.

The way this discussion is going reminds me of a islamic website http://www.askimam.org/ :D :D







Ending in ..and Allah knows the best...

The husband in above tuk means husband Lord.
All souls male or female are she or woman in bani as we need to connect to our husband. The Lord.

Or maybe not time travel but soul travel. Beyond this physical illusion, there is no time or space. All is ONE. There have been many stories of people soul travelling (astral projection) to other places.... including Guru Nanak Dev Ji.

Yes I am taking Amrit in Kashmir, and though they are no specific Jatha they allow women Panj Pyares. And have had female Panj Pyares.

It's wrong translation, read the whole shabad, its related to overall attachment/pleasure to clothes and food not by simply wearing out of circumstances. Not sure how you got tight clothes translatation from it

ਬਾਬਾ ਹੋਰੁ ਪੈਨਣੁ ਖੁਸੀ ਖੁਆਰੁ ॥
बाबा होरु पैनणु खुसी खुआरु ॥
Bābā hor painaṇ kẖusī kẖu▫ār.
O Baba, the pleasures of other clothes are false.
ਜਿਤੁ ਪੈਧੈ ਤਨੁ ਪੀੜੀਐ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਚਲਹਿ ਵਿਕਾਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
जितु पैधै तनु पीड़ीऐ मन महि चलहि विकार ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Jiṯ paiḏẖai ṯan pīṛī▫ai man mėh cẖalėh vikār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Wearing them, the body is ruined, and wickedness and corruption enter into the mind. ||1||Pause||


Not saying we are at the level, but its starts from mind-thoughts, thats updesh of gurbani to beginner seekers. If you are too worried about external things at any given time, you are choosing to have senses to go outside rather than taking the senses invert/introvert in shabad with effort. It's quite simple, one does not need to BE bhramgyani in order to praticise meditation with effort of five senses which leads to spritual transcedence. The fact is sikh youths have become lazy wimps to do any effort on naam simran or anything as they are too busy vilifying others, enforce rules in garb of self righteousness..no different musim talibans. Stop using cop out statements like vikaares like me, you choose that decision we shouldnt be using cop out methods by being lazy and come up with these self loathing statements- everyone one of us have a choice- each every moment we all have choice either identify with conditioned mind -manmukh and identify with pure intuitive consciousness within all of us-gurmukh.