ibrute

Chatanga paai saab ji, agree with your views. Me, in fact have been going over some of the topics and am utter loss of words the way some of the members here have been carrying out the discussion. Sometime it feels like a bunch of teenagers trying to shout each other off. Most are so self centered and fueled by their own ego. Unfortunately I cannot say much on the historical technicalities, but some of the view being put forward seem outright irrational.  Even on panthic so called 'issues' some things don't make sense. When we have  'Sikh women fighting for equal rights'. This statement sounds an oxymoron to me. Not saying we do not have social injustice or crimes against women (within Sikh panth as well), but that is what those issues are - Social issues. I would think most of us are accustomed to the western mindset where we see everything in a structural view from top to bottom. And that causes a problem on how we set our own expectations. And then we try to bring that perspective and ideas in Sikhi. People tend to forget that there are no 'structures' in the Sikh panth. Everyone 'reports' to one supreme Waheguru. There is no 'ladder' to climb. For both men or women. You only have spiritual 'ladder' to bring you closer to Waheguru.
Also, It is a shame when we have people here trying to 'define' who is a Sikh. In my view anyone who says he/she follows and tries to live by the teachings of Sir Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, can be called a Sikh. Being Sikh is not a 'stamp'. When you are a 'learner', each person has his/her own pace. The amritdhari are the Khalsa initiated Sikhs. Those who know what it means to give their head to the Guru. Those who know how to serve the Sikh panth and the humanity, with their head in their palm. For their own convenience people cannot meet the higher spiritual standards of being a Amritdhari Khalsa Sikh, and then want to redefine what it means to be a Sikh.
For people who oppose Dasam Bani, I would say you are better off. It is not for the faint hearted and neither for anyone who does not fully understand the teachings of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
Apologies to all for going off topic. Just wanted to say a few words.

I know  Guru Sahibs did not cry because Guru Nanak left Mata Sulakhni for a better person. Unlike, Sri Rama ji who felt pain & grief upon separation from Sita Ji, as per SGGS.
Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji did not cry when he gave hukum to Baba Atal Rai to leave his body since he violated a natural principle.
Sri Rama ji was a 14 kala avatar.
Sri Krishna Ji was 16 kala avtar. I could not find any example of Sri Krishna ji crying in grief. 
Sri Guru Nanak Ji anant kala, countless kala avtar.
Obviously, it is human nature to cry.  But Gurus do not cry in grief. They already know the events. Lets suppose they did cry, it would be drama, without attached to grief.
ਸੁਖ ਦੁਖ ਸਮ ਕਰਿ ਜਾਣੀਅਹਿ ਸਬਦਿ ਭੇਦਿ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥੫॥
Treat the happiness & sadness the same, thus a brahmgyani will stay untouched, he will neither be sad nor happy.
 
 

EXACTLY!!
You become what you perceive.
Bhagat, you perceive that Gurus cried in grief. Guru had bhog.
I choose to perceive that Gurus did not cry. They did not physically Bhog. They are Nirankar. And they are above the avtars like Sri Rama. 
This is the same kind of thinking that made Ghagge to write that Guru Arjun Dev Ji became unconscious when sitting on hot plate. The Singhs questioned him and asked for an apology later.
 
 
 
 
 

First of all, Guru Nanak did not have sex, nor did any of the gurus. They were above the basic urges. They did not need the physical act to procreate. So there goes your analogy out of the window. Thus, Guru Nanak is higher than everybody else.
Guru Nanak did not eat either . He went without food for many days. Baba Harnam Singh  Rampur did an experiement where he survived on naam only without any water or food. His personal interview. So there goes you analogy B out of the window for me again.
Crying is a weakness when you are crying in separation of a worldly person, because you are showing attachment. Attachment/Moh is one of the vices that a Sikh has to let go or a brahmgyani controls. 
Crying in love for God or separation from God or a Guru Murshid is acceptable. Those tears wash away your sins and cleanse your mind. I have provided your examples from Guru Granth Sahib where person cries in vairag or dispassion . That is acceptable.
When you cry in grief, from separation, that means you are still attached to that person, you are feeling that void.  But to say Guru cried in grief, I do not believe that.
 
 
 
 
 

Bhagat, it is a matter of different perceptions & your minds interpretations.
You view Guru as having gone through the grief process. I do not.
Guru Ji knew about all the events that were going to happen with sahibzade. When Mata Ajeet Kaur Ji saw all these events in Samadhi, she asked permission from Guru Ji to leave her body before these events happened. You think Guru ji would be surprised & gone through the grief process after knowing about all the events beforehand.
Bhagat, you are attributing human qualities of unknowing & sadness & grief to Gurus life. This might work for some people.But I hold my Guru away from unknowing, surprise, & emotions of grief.
ps. And btw Guru Nanak didn't have sex to produce children, ...again it is a matter of devotion. Some people view Guru as a normal human , and others view Guru as Nirankar.
I choose to view Guru as both in Nirgun & Sargun form, immersed in everything like Brahm, but at the same time enacting a drama to teach people, but in reality being away from all the drama as well.
Whatever helps with your spiritual path. What helps me in spirituality is holding my Guru as Nirankar, separate from drama, but enacting drama also for the sake of teaching.

The different sakhis does'nt mutually exclude one another.
While we are on the topic, see this sad video - Kavi Santokh Singhs account of the shaheedi.. Even Kavi Santokh Singh had to pause and take breaks while describing the event due to them being so horrofic and tragic!
 

Bhai Sahib Bhai Randhir Singh Ji covers everything that has to do with Nam in his book.
What is Nam?
Who gives Nam?
How to pratice Nam?
Misconceptions about Nam?
and many more questions that are answered
 
You can download it from this link
http://khalsaspirit.com/files/Naam_Tay_Naam_Daa_Daata_Satguru.pdf
 
 
Someone on this forum had uploaded it?
http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,33568

Before reading Guru Granth Sahib ji, we must keep the following instruction in our minds:
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੩ ॥ ਪਰਥਾਇ ਸਾਖੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਸਾਝੀ ਸਗਲ ਜਹਾਨੈ ॥ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹੋਇ ਸੁ ਭਉ ਕਰੇ ਆਪਣਾ ਆਪੁ ਪਛਾਣੈ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੀਵਤੁ ਮਰੈ ਤਾ ਮਨ ਹੀ ਤੇ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 647}ਮਹਾਂ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਿਸੇ ਦੇ ਸੰਬੰਧ ਵਿਚ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ ਦਾ ਬਚਨ ਬੋਲਦੇ ਹਨ (ਪਰ ਉਹ ਸਿੱਖਿਆ) ਸਾਰੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਲਈ ਸਾਂਝੀ ਹੁੰਦੀ ਹੈ, ਜੋ ਮਨੁੱਖ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੇ ਸਨਮੁਖ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਉਹ (ਸੁਣ ਕੇ) ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਦਾ ਡਰ (ਹਿਰਦੇ ਵਿਚ ਧਾਰਨ) ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤੇ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਦੀ ਖੋਜ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ। ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਦੀ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਨਾਲ ਉਹ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿਚ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਵਲੋਂ ਉਦਾਸ ਰਹਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ, ਤਾਂ ਉਸ ਦਾ ਮਨ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਵਿਚ ਪਤੀਜ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ (ਬਾਹਰ ਭਟਕਣੋਂ ਹਟ ਜਾਂਦਾ ਹੈ)।Thus, even though Mahapurakhs like Bhagat Namdev Ji is addressing a single person, it is our duty as Gurmukhs to learn from it.  
 
ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਗੋਂਡ ॥ ਆਜੁ ਨਾਮੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਊ ਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰੀ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ਲੋਧੇ ਕਾ ਖੇਤੁ ਖਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥ ਲੈ ਕਰਿ ਠੇਗਾ ਟਗਰੀ ਤੋਰੀ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਲਾਂਗਤ ਜਾਤੀ ਥੀ ॥੧॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਮਹਾਦੇਉ ਧਉਲੇ ਬਲਦ ਚੜਿਆ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ ਮੋਦੀ ਕੇ ਘਰ ਖਾਣਾ ਪਾਕਾ ਵਾ ਕਾ ਲੜਕਾ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਥਾ ॥੨॥ ਪਾਂਡੇ ਤੁਮਰਾ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੋ ਭੀ ਆਵਤੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਥਾ ॥ ਰਾਵਨ ਸੇਤੀ ਸਰਬਰ ਹੋਈ ਘਰ ਕੀ ਜੋਇ ਗਵਾਈ ਥੀ ॥੩॥ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ ॥ ਦੁਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਸਿਆਣਾ ॥ ਹਿੰਦੂ ਪੂਜੈ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਣੁ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥ ਨਾਮੇ ਸੋਈ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਜਹ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਨ ਮਸੀਤਿ ॥੪॥੩॥੭॥In the highlighted  line above, Bhagat Ji is taunting the Pandit about King Ramchandra Ji.  There must be some weakness, that Bhagat ji had to taunt Sri Rama.
 
ਰਾਮੁ ਝੁਰੈ ਦਲ ਮੇਲਵੈ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਲੁ ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ॥ ਬੰਤਰ ਕੀ ਸੈਨਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਮਨਿ ਤਨਿ ਜੁਝੁ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥ ਸੀਤਾ ਲੈ ਗਇਆ ਦਹਸਿਰੋ ਲਛਮਣੁ ਮੂਓ ਸਰਾਪਿ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਰਣਹਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਥਾਪਿ ਉਥਾਪਿ ॥੨੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1412}ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਝੂਰੈ ਰਾਮਚੰਦੁ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਛਮਣ ਜੋਗੁ ॥ ਹਣਵੰਤਰੁ ਆਰਾਧਿਆ ਆਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ॥ ਭੂਲਾ ਦੈਤੁ ਨ ਸਮਝਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀਏ ਕਾਮ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਵੇਪਰਵਾਹੁ ਸੋ ਕਿਰਤੁ ਨ ਮਿਟਈ ਰਾਮ ॥੨੬॥
ਹੇ ਨਾਨਕ! ਕਰਤਾਰ ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਕਰ ਸਕਣ ਦੀ ਸਮਰਥਾ ਵਾਲਾ ਹੈ (ਉਸ ਨੂੰ ਕਦੇ ਝੁਰਨ ਦੀ ਦੁਖੀ ਹੋਣ ਦੀ ਲੋੜ ਨਹੀਂ), ਉਹ ਤਾਂ ਪੈਦਾ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਨਾਸ ਕਰ ਕੇ (ਸਭ ਕੁਝ ਕਰ ਕੇ ਆਪ ਹੀ) ਵੇਖਦਾ ਹੈ। (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਸ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਦੀ ਬਰਾਬਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ। ਵੇਖੋ, ਰਾਵਣ ਨਾਲ ਲੜਾਈ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ) ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਫ਼ੌਜਾਂ ਇਕੱਠੀਆਂ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ, (ਉਸ ਦੇ) ਅੰਦਰ (ਫ਼ੌਜਾਂ ਇਕੱਠੀਆਂ ਕਰਨ ਦੇ) ਅਧਿਕਾਰ ਦੀ ਤਾਕਤ ਭੀ ਹੈ, ਵਾਨਰਾਂ ਦੀ (ਉਸ) ਫ਼ੌਜ ਦੀ ਰਾਹੀਂ (ਉਸ ਦੀ) ਸੇਵਾ ਭੀ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈ (ਜਿਸ ਸੈਨਾ ਦੇ) ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਤਨ ਵਿਚ ਜੁੱਧ ਕਰਨ ਦਾ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਚਾਉ ਹੈ, (ਫਿਰ ਭੀ ਸ੍ਰੀ) ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ (ਤਦੋਂ) ਦੁਖੀ ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ (ਦੁਖੀ ਹੋਇਆ, ਜਦੋਂ) ਸੀਤਾ (ਜੀ) ਨੂੰ ਰਾਵਣ ਲੈ ਗਿਆ ਸੀ, (ਤੇ, ਫਿਰ ਜਦੋਂ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਭਾਈ) ਲਛਮਨ ਸਰਾਪ ਨਾਲ ਮਰ ਗਿਆ ਸੀ।25।ਹੇ ਭਾਈ! ਉਹ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ (ਤਾਂ) ਬੇ-ਮੁਥਾਜ ਹੈ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਉਸ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਬਰਾਬਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰ ਸਕਦਾ)। (ਸ੍ਰੀ) ਰਾਮਚੰਦ (ਜੀ) ਪਾਸੋਂ ਵੀ ਨਾਹ ਮਿਟ ਸਕੀ। (ਵੇਖੋ, ਸ੍ਰੀ) ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ (ਆਪਣੇ) ਮਨ ਵਿਚ ਸੀਤਾ (ਜੀ) ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ ਦੁਖੀ ਹੋਇਆ (ਜਦੋਂ ਸੀਤਾ ਜੀ ਨੂੰ ਰਾਵਣ ਚੁਰਾ ਕੇ ਲੈ ਗਿਆ, ਫਿਰ) ਦੁਖੀ ਹੋਇਆ ਲਛਮਣ ਦੀ ਖ਼ਾਤਰ (ਜਦੋਂ ਰਣਭੂਮੀ ਵਿਚ ਲਛਮਨ ਬਰਛੀ ਨਾਲ ਮੂਰਛਿਤ ਹੋਇਆ)। (ਤਦੋਂ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਨੇ) ਹਨੂਮਾਨ ਨੂੰ ਯਾਦ ਕੀਤਾ ਜੋ (ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਵਲੋਂ ਬਣੇ) ਸੰਜੋਗ ਦੇ ਕਾਰਨ (ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ੍ਰ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਸਰਨ) ਆਇਆ ਸੀ। ਮੂਰਖ ਰਾਵਣ (ਭੀ) ਇਹ ਗੱਲ ਨਾਹ ਸਮਝਿਆ ਕਿ ਇਹ ਸਾਰੇ ਕੰਮ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਨੇ (ਆਪ ਹੀ) ਕੀਤੇ ਸਨ।26।
In the above Shabad, Guru Nanak Dev Ji says,  Sri Ram is feeling sorrow, is in despair due to separation from Sita as well as unconsciousness of Lakshman. 
 
ਸਲੋਕੁ ਮਃ ੧ ॥ ਸਹੰਸਰ ਦਾਨ ਦੇ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੁ ਰੋਆਇਆ ॥ ਪਰਸ ਰਾਮੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥ ਅਜੈ ਸੁ ਰੋਵੈ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਖਾਇ ॥ ਐਸੀ ਦਰਗਹ ਮਿਲੈ ਸਜਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਨਿਕਾਲਾ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਸੀਤਾ ਲਖਮਣੁ ਵਿਛੁੜਿ ਗਇਆ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਦਹਸਿਰੁ ਲੰਕ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਜਿਨਿ ਸੀਤਾ ਆਦੀ ਡਉਰੂ ਵਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਪਾਂਡਵ ਭਏ ਮਜੂਰ ॥ ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਰਹਤ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥ ਰੋਵੈ ਜਨਮੇਜਾ ਖੁਇ ਗਇਆ ॥ ਏਕੀ ਕਾਰਣਿ ਪਾਪੀ ਭਇਆ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਸੇਖ ਮਸਾਇਕ ਪੀਰ ॥ ਅੰਤਿ ਕਾਲਿ ਮਤੁ ਲਾਗੈ ਭੀੜ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਰਾਜੇ ਕੰਨ ਪੜਾਇ ॥ ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਮਾਗਹਿ ਭੀਖਿਆ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਕਿਰਪਨ ਸੰਚਹਿ ਧਨੁ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਪੰਡਿਤ ਰੋਵਹਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਗਵਾਇ ॥ ਬਾਲੀ ਰੋਵੈ ਨਾਹਿ ਭਤਾਰੁ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਦੁਖੀਆ ਸਭੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਮੰਨੇ ਨਾਉ ਸੋਈ ਜਿਣਿ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਅਉਰੀ ਕਰਮ ਨ ਲੇਖੈ ਲਾਇ ॥੧॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 953-954}
 
Guru Nanak dev ji gave the example of Sri Rama under the category of people who cried because of suffering or sorrow. Thus, from the above examples in Guru Granth Sahib that I have provided, it is clear in my mind that the crying of Sri Rama was in context of separation from Sita Ji & Sri Lakhsman. He felt the emotions of sufferin, pain, sorrow , attachment and thus cried. Whereas the Brahm is Sat Chit Ananda, no fluctuation of emotions neither any pain of separation from a loved one.
 Except for the relation between Guru & Disciple,  which is different from worldly relations, can any one say that Guru Ji cried when their brother or wife was separated from them ?
 ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਘਰੁ ੨ ॥ ਬਾਨਾਰਸੀ ਤਪੁ ਕਰੈ ਉਲਟਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਮਰੈ ਅਗਨਿ ਦਹੈ ਕਾਇਆ ਕਲਪੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਅਸੁਮੇਧ ਜਗੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਸੋਨਾ ਗਰਭ ਦਾਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਿ ਤਊ ਨ ਪੂਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਛੋਡਿ ਛੋਡਿ ਰੇ ਪਾਖੰਡੀ ਮਨ ਕਪਟੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤਹਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ ਗੰਗਾ ਜਉ ਗੋਦਾਵਰਿ ਜਾਈਐ ਕੁੰਭਿ ਜਉ ਕੇਦਾਰ ਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾਈਐ ਗੋਮਤੀ ਸਹਸ ਗਊ ਦਾਨੁ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਜਉ ਤੀਰਥ ਕਰੈ ਤਨੁ ਜਉ ਹਿਵਾਲੇ ਗਾਰੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਿ ਤਊ ਨ ਪੂਜੈ ॥੨॥ ਅਸੁ ਦਾਨ ਗਜ ਦਾਨ ਸਿਹਜਾ ਨਾਰੀ ਭੂਮਿ ਦਾਨ ਐਸੋ ਦਾਨੁ ਨਿਤ ਨਿਤਹਿ ਕੀਜੈ ॥ ਆਤਮ ਜਉ ਨਿਰਮਾਇਲੁ ਕੀਜੈ ਆਪ ਬਰਾਬਰਿ ਕੰਚਨੁ ਦੀਜੈ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਸਰਿ ਤਊ ਨ ਪੂਜੈ ॥੩॥ ਮਨਹਿ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ਰੋਸੁ ਜਮਹਿ ਨ ਦੀਜੈ ਦੋਸੁ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਿਰਬਾਣ ਪਦੁ ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਲੀਜੈ ॥ ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 973}
The literal translation of highlighted line is surprising coming from Bhagat Namdev Ji. But here is the interpretation of another scholar:
pr cOQy pd ivc Acncyq rwjw jsrQ dy pu`qr sRI rwm cMdr jI dw nwm Aw jwxw hYrwnI ivc pw dyNdw hY [ keI s`jx ArQ krdy hn—“rwjw jsrQ dy pu`qr dw rwjw” [ ieh ArQ Zlq hY ikauNik l&z ‘nµdu’ dw ArQ hY ‘pu`qr’; “pu`qr dw” nhIN ho skdw; jy ies dw ArQ huMdw “pu`qr dw” qW ies l&z dy hyT (   u ) nw huMdw [ keI s`jx ieh smJdy hn ik sRI rwm cMdr jI ny v`fy v`fy kMm kIqy hn, ies vwsqy iehnW kMmW ƒ prmwqmw dy kMm d`s ky l&z “rwm cMdu” ƒ prmwqmw vwsqy vriqAw hY [ ieh BI AnhoxI g`l hY [ iPr, ies g`l dI kIh loV sI ik sRI rwm cMdr jI dy ipqw dw nwm BI d`isAw jWdw? l&z ik®Sn, dwmodr, mwDo, murwir, rwm, rwm cMd Awidk BgqW ny qy sqgurU jI ny BI sYNkVy vwrI prmwqmw vwsqy vrqy hn; pr jdoN iksy dy ipqw dw nwm BI nwl id`qw jwey, qW aus vyly aus nwm ƒ prmwqmw vwsqy nhIN vriqAw jw skdw [ iPr qW iksy ^ws ivAkqI dw izkr hI ho skdw hY [
 
 ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥ ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1390}
(ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ!) ਸਤਜੁਗ ਵਿਚ (ਭੀ) ਤੂੰ ਹੀ (ਰਾਜ ਤੇ ਜੋਗ) ਮਾਣਿਆ ਸੀ, ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਰਾਜਾ ਬਲਿ ਨੂੰ ਛਲਿਆ ਸੀ ਤੇ ਤਦੋਂ ਵਾਮਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ ਬਣਨਾ ਤੈਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ ਲੱਗਾ ਸੀ। ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇ ਵਿਚ ਭੀ ਤੂੰ ਹੀ (ਰਾਜ ਤੇ ਜੋਗ) ਮਾਣਿਆ ਸੀ, ਤਦੋਂ ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੇ ਆਪ ਨੂੰ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੀ ਰਾਮ ਅਖਵਾਇਆ ਸੀ (ਭਾਵ, ਹੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਨਾਨਕ! ਮੇਰੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਤਾਂ ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਹੈਂ ਵਾਮਨ ਅਵਤਾਰ, ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਹੈਂ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੀ ਰਾਮ)।
My final thought , as per my current understanding :
Sri Rama Chandra Jee was a pooran avtar in His age, but not equal to Guru Nanak who is Pure Brahm Pure Bliss without fluctuation in emotions or feeling sorrow .
 

I don't think Guru Maharaj means that, sexual relations with any women except wife means the same thing, religion is not an issue. What I think it means is, ejacualtion in sex means you are willingly doing it even for a moment. I think that is the jist here.
On similar note, during war, Muslims and others used to hurl nasty abuses to singhs in order to provoke them. Singhs naturally reply in same tone, its war what the hell. Guru Gobind Singh Jee heard it and said Singho' dont abuse, say 'waheguru', even in war we have standards.

I don't think Guru Maharaj means that, sexual relations with any women except wife means the same thing, religion is not an issue. What I think it means is, ejacualtion in sex means you are willingly doing it even for a moment. I think that is the jist here.
On similar note, during war, Muslims and others used to hurl nasty abuses to singhs in order to provoke them. Singhs naturally reply in same tone, its war what the hell. Guru Gobind Singh Jee heard it and said Singho' dont abuse, say 'waheguru', even in war we have standards.

We are made up of five elements, but jamdoots are made of two elements fire and air, thats why they can travel anywhere, also we can say they are normal blokes, who sometimes make mistakes with same name person and take other person soul with them. But it is rare of rare. I heard that when jamdoots take soul from the body, unimaginable pain is experienced. Some Mahapursh were saying that if we know this pain while alive, we will never forget god for a instant because this pain is so much excruciating. 
Upside is mentioned in this Gurbani's shabad. Dharam Raja warns his jamdoots to not go near gurmukhs(any religion); 

Jeh Saadhu Gobind Bhajan Kirtan Nanak Neet|| 
Naa hau, naa tu neh chhutay, nikat na jaaeeo doot|| 

(O Jamdooths, where Saadhoos of Gobind, do bhajan and kirtan everyday, never go there; if you go there, then neither you, nor I will be saved from punishment). 
 

We are made up of five elements, but jamdoots are made of two elements fire and air, thats why they can travel anywhere, also we can say they are normal blokes, who sometimes make mistakes with same name person and take other person soul with them. But it is rare of rare. I heard that when jamdoots take soul from the body, unimaginable pain is experienced. Some Mahapursh were saying that if we know this pain while alive, we will never forget god for a instant because this pain is so much excruciating. 
Upside is mentioned in this Gurbani's shabad. Dharam Raja warns his jamdoots to not go near gurmukhs(any religion); 

Jeh Saadhu Gobind Bhajan Kirtan Nanak Neet|| 
Naa hau, naa tu neh chhutay, nikat na jaaeeo doot|| 

(O Jamdooths, where Saadhoos of Gobind, do bhajan and kirtan everyday, never go there; if you go there, then neither you, nor I will be saved from punishment). 
 

We are made up of five elements, but jamdoots are made of two elements fire and air, thats why they can travel anywhere, also we can say they are normal blokes, who sometimes make mistakes with same name person and take other person soul with them. But it is rare of rare. I heard that when jamdoots take soul from the body, unimaginable pain is experienced. Some Mahapursh were saying that if we know this pain while alive, we will never forget god for a instant because this pain is so much excruciating. 
Upside is mentioned in this Gurbani's shabad. Dharam Raja warns his jamdoots to not go near gurmukhs(any religion); 

Jeh Saadhu Gobind Bhajan Kirtan Nanak Neet|| 
Naa hau, naa tu neh chhutay, nikat na jaaeeo doot|| 

(O Jamdooths, where Saadhoos of Gobind, do bhajan and kirtan everyday, never go there; if you go there, then neither you, nor I will be saved from punishment). 
 

We are made up of five elements, but jamdoots are made of two elements fire and air, thats why they can travel anywhere, also we can say they are normal blokes, who sometimes make mistakes with same name person and take other person soul with them. But it is rare of rare. I heard that when jamdoots take soul from the body, unimaginable pain is experienced. Some Mahapursh were saying that if we know this pain while alive, we will never forget god for a instant because this pain is so much excruciating. 
Upside is mentioned in this Gurbani's shabad. Dharam Raja warns his jamdoots to not go near gurmukhs(any religion); 

Jeh Saadhu Gobind Bhajan Kirtan Nanak Neet|| 
Naa hau, naa tu neh chhutay, nikat na jaaeeo doot|| 

(O Jamdooths, where Saadhoos of Gobind, do bhajan and kirtan everyday, never go there; if you go there, then neither you, nor I will be saved from punishment). 
 

We are made up of five elements, but jamdoots are made of two elements fire and air, thats why they can travel anywhere, also we can say they are normal blokes, who sometimes make mistakes with same name person and take other person soul with them. But it is rare of rare. I heard that when jamdoots take soul from the body, unimaginable pain is experienced. Some Mahapursh were saying that if we know this pain while alive, we will never forget god for a instant because this pain is so much excruciating. 
Upside is mentioned in this Gurbani's shabad. Dharam Raja warns his jamdoots to not go near gurmukhs(any religion); 

Jeh Saadhu Gobind Bhajan Kirtan Nanak Neet|| 
Naa hau, naa tu neh chhutay, nikat na jaaeeo doot|| 

(O Jamdooths, where Saadhoos of Gobind, do bhajan and kirtan everyday, never go there; if you go there, then neither you, nor I will be saved from punishment). 
 

I have heard in katha, that one abhiyasi (highly spiritual stage) was sitting during the amrit sanchaar ceremony solely for this purpose alone that whether women who partake in panj pyaare were actually able to initiate the askers. He told that NO panj pyaare whether "men or women" can initiate the new ones, because only Guru has the right to initiate the new comers. So what actually happens in the ceremony is, after panj pyaare do ardas to start the sanchaar process by first reading five bani's. Then they collectively do ardas along with sangat to Guru Granth Sahib Jee maharaj to allow them to distribute the amrit to the seekers. Now, here is what happens as this highly spiritual told us, light(jot) from Guru Granth Sahib enters the body of the panj pyaare's and Guru himself initiate the new ones. He says that women who were in panj pyaare service, light did not enter their body, so real amrit process is interrupted; though outwardly we can say we got amrit. Also light did not enter disabled ones too.
Why light(jot) did enter men and not women/diabled ones, who knows, why? except guru himself, and we can ask this question to Guru himself only when we meet him (means we need high spiritual stage) and we need to be amritdhari for that.
My point is even if we want to be critical of this account as told by this person, why would we take risk of taking amrit from women/disable ones. It is already established that sikhs who take amrit from five men, reached to the god, brahamgyaan, history told us. Does we have account of single brahamgyani initiated by women.
All the effort we put in, nitnem, waking early/doing simran, and what if nothing happens after we are initiated by women. If after our demise we ask god; I did everything you told, but no spritual stage for me, why? God could say who told you to do man-mat and take amrit which you think is suitable. We wont be able to answer it.
So, my point is why take risk just to prove your thinking right, when Guru says leave your thinking at the door.
Dont ask why this, why that, Just use your mind to accomplish what Guru told you to do, Simran, Rehat and Gurbani. Don't be a wise-ass.
This comment for satkiran never say that any person here on this forum or any where else can speak for Guru, If Guru want to talk to you, he will do himself, he did not need us to speak for him. If you want to know what Guru thinks ask Guru Granth Sahib jee maharaj, take hukamnama.

I have heard in katha, that one abhiyasi (highly spiritual stage) was sitting during the amrit sanchaar ceremony solely for this purpose alone that whether women who partake in panj pyaare were actually able to initiate the askers. He told that NO panj pyaare whether "men or women" can initiate the new ones, because only Guru has the right to initiate the new comers. So what actually happens in the ceremony is, after panj pyaare do ardas to start the sanchaar process by first reading five bani's. Then they collectively do ardas along with sangat to Guru Granth Sahib Jee maharaj to allow them to distribute the amrit to the seekers. Now, here is what happens as this highly spiritual told us, light(jot) from Guru Granth Sahib enters the body of the panj pyaare's and Guru himself initiate the new ones. He says that women who were in panj pyaare service, light did not enter their body, so real amrit process is interrupted; though outwardly we can say we got amrit. Also light did not enter disabled ones too.
Why light(jot) did enter men and not women/diabled ones, who knows, why? except guru himself, and we can ask this question to Guru himself only when we meet him (means we need high spiritual stage) and we need to be amritdhari for that.
My point is even if we want to be critical of this account as told by this person, why would we take risk of taking amrit from women/disable ones. It is already established that sikhs who take amrit from five men, reached to the god, brahamgyaan, history told us. Does we have account of single brahamgyani initiated by women.
All the effort we put in, nitnem, waking early/doing simran, and what if nothing happens after we are initiated by women. If after our demise we ask god; I did everything you told, but no spritual stage for me, why? God could say who told you to do man-mat and take amrit which you think is suitable. We wont be able to answer it.
So, my point is why take risk just to prove your thinking right, when Guru says leave your thinking at the door.
Dont ask why this, why that, Just use your mind to accomplish what Guru told you to do, Simran, Rehat and Gurbani. Don't be a wise-ass.
This comment for satkiran never say that any person here on this forum or any where else can speak for Guru, If Guru want to talk to you, he will do himself, he did not need us to speak for him. If you want to know what Guru thinks ask Guru Granth Sahib jee maharaj, take hukamnama.

I have heard in katha, that one abhiyasi (highly spiritual stage) was sitting during the amrit sanchaar ceremony solely for this purpose alone that whether women who partake in panj pyaare were actually able to initiate the askers. He told that NO panj pyaare whether "men or women" can initiate the new ones, because only Guru has the right to initiate the new comers. So what actually happens in the ceremony is, after panj pyaare do ardas to start the sanchaar process by first reading five bani's. Then they collectively do ardas along with sangat to Guru Granth Sahib Jee maharaj to allow them to distribute the amrit to the seekers. Now, here is what happens as this highly spiritual told us, light(jot) from Guru Granth Sahib enters the body of the panj pyaare's and Guru himself initiate the new ones. He says that women who were in panj pyaare service, light did not enter their body, so real amrit process is interrupted; though outwardly we can say we got amrit. Also light did not enter disabled ones too.
Why light(jot) did enter men and not women/diabled ones, who knows, why? except guru himself, and we can ask this question to Guru himself only when we meet him (means we need high spiritual stage) and we need to be amritdhari for that.
My point is even if we want to be critical of this account as told by this person, why would we take risk of taking amrit from women/disable ones. It is already established that sikhs who take amrit from five men, reached to the god, brahamgyaan, history told us. Does we have account of single brahamgyani initiated by women.
All the effort we put in, nitnem, waking early/doing simran, and what if nothing happens after we are initiated by women. If after our demise we ask god; I did everything you told, but no spritual stage for me, why? God could say who told you to do man-mat and take amrit which you think is suitable. We wont be able to answer it.
So, my point is why take risk just to prove your thinking right, when Guru says leave your thinking at the door.
Dont ask why this, why that, Just use your mind to accomplish what Guru told you to do, Simran, Rehat and Gurbani. Don't be a wise-ass.
This comment for satkiran never say that any person here on this forum or any where else can speak for Guru, If Guru want to talk to you, he will do himself, he did not need us to speak for him. If you want to know what Guru thinks ask Guru Granth Sahib jee maharaj, take hukamnama.

I have heard in katha, that one abhiyasi (highly spiritual stage) was sitting during the amrit sanchaar ceremony solely for this purpose alone that whether women who partake in panj pyaare were actually able to initiate the askers. He told that NO panj pyaare whether "men or women" can initiate the new ones, because only Guru has the right to initiate the new comers. So what actually happens in the ceremony is, after panj pyaare do ardas to start the sanchaar process by first reading five bani's. Then they collectively do ardas along with sangat to Guru Granth Sahib Jee maharaj to allow them to distribute the amrit to the seekers. Now, here is what happens as this highly spiritual told us, light(jot) from Guru Granth Sahib enters the body of the panj pyaare's and Guru himself initiate the new ones. He says that women who were in panj pyaare service, light did not enter their body, so real amrit process is interrupted; though outwardly we can say we got amrit. Also light did not enter disabled ones too.
Why light(jot) did enter men and not women/diabled ones, who knows, why? except guru himself, and we can ask this question to Guru himself only when we meet him (means we need high spiritual stage) and we need to be amritdhari for that.
My point is even if we want to be critical of this account as told by this person, why would we take risk of taking amrit from women/disable ones. It is already established that sikhs who take amrit from five men, reached to the god, brahamgyaan, history told us. Does we have account of single brahamgyani initiated by women.
All the effort we put in, nitnem, waking early/doing simran, and what if nothing happens after we are initiated by women. If after our demise we ask god; I did everything you told, but no spritual stage for me, why? God could say who told you to do man-mat and take amrit which you think is suitable. We wont be able to answer it.
So, my point is why take risk just to prove your thinking right, when Guru says leave your thinking at the door.
Dont ask why this, why that, Just use your mind to accomplish what Guru told you to do, Simran, Rehat and Gurbani. Don't be a wise-ass.
This comment for satkiran never say that any person here on this forum or any where else can speak for Guru, If Guru want to talk to you, he will do himself, he did not need us to speak for him. If you want to know what Guru thinks ask Guru Granth Sahib jee maharaj, take hukamnama.

I have heard in katha, that one abhiyasi (highly spiritual stage) was sitting during the amrit sanchaar ceremony solely for this purpose alone that whether women who partake in panj pyaare were actually able to initiate the askers. He told that NO panj pyaare whether "men or women" can initiate the new ones, because only Guru has the right to initiate the new comers. So what actually happens in the ceremony is, after panj pyaare do ardas to start the sanchaar process by first reading five bani's. Then they collectively do ardas along with sangat to Guru Granth Sahib Jee maharaj to allow them to distribute the amrit to the seekers. Now, here is what happens as this highly spiritual told us, light(jot) from Guru Granth Sahib enters the body of the panj pyaare's and Guru himself initiate the new ones. He says that women who were in panj pyaare service, light did not enter their body, so real amrit process is interrupted; though outwardly we can say we got amrit. Also light did not enter disabled ones too.
Why light(jot) did enter men and not women/diabled ones, who knows, why? except guru himself, and we can ask this question to Guru himself only when we meet him (means we need high spiritual stage) and we need to be amritdhari for that.
My point is even if we want to be critical of this account as told by this person, why would we take risk of taking amrit from women/disable ones. It is already established that sikhs who take amrit from five men, reached to the god, brahamgyaan, history told us. Does we have account of single brahamgyani initiated by women.
All the effort we put in, nitnem, waking early/doing simran, and what if nothing happens after we are initiated by women. If after our demise we ask god; I did everything you told, but no spritual stage for me, why? God could say who told you to do man-mat and take amrit which you think is suitable. We wont be able to answer it.
So, my point is why take risk just to prove your thinking right, when Guru says leave your thinking at the door.
Dont ask why this, why that, Just use your mind to accomplish what Guru told you to do, Simran, Rehat and Gurbani. Don't be a wise-ass.
This comment for satkiran never say that any person here on this forum or any where else can speak for Guru, If Guru want to talk to you, he will do himself, he did not need us to speak for him. If you want to know what Guru thinks ask Guru Granth Sahib jee maharaj, take hukamnama.

I have heard in katha, that one abhiyasi (highly spiritual stage) was sitting during the amrit sanchaar ceremony solely for this purpose alone that whether women who partake in panj pyaare were actually able to initiate the askers. He told that NO panj pyaare whether "men or women" can initiate the new ones, because only Guru has the right to initiate the new comers. So what actually happens in the ceremony is, after panj pyaare do ardas to start the sanchaar process by first reading five bani's. Then they collectively do ardas along with sangat to Guru Granth Sahib Jee maharaj to allow them to distribute the amrit to the seekers. Now, here is what happens as this highly spiritual told us, light(jot) from Guru Granth Sahib enters the body of the panj pyaare's and Guru himself initiate the new ones. He says that women who were in panj pyaare service, light did not enter their body, so real amrit process is interrupted; though outwardly we can say we got amrit. Also light did not enter disabled ones too.
Why light(jot) did enter men and not women/diabled ones, who knows, why? except guru himself, and we can ask this question to Guru himself only when we meet him (means we need high spiritual stage) and we need to be amritdhari for that.
My point is even if we want to be critical of this account as told by this person, why would we take risk of taking amrit from women/disable ones. It is already established that sikhs who take amrit from five men, reached to the god, brahamgyaan, history told us. Does we have account of single brahamgyani initiated by women.
All the effort we put in, nitnem, waking early/doing simran, and what if nothing happens after we are initiated by women. If after our demise we ask god; I did everything you told, but no spritual stage for me, why? God could say who told you to do man-mat and take amrit which you think is suitable. We wont be able to answer it.
So, my point is why take risk just to prove your thinking right, when Guru says leave your thinking at the door.
Dont ask why this, why that, Just use your mind to accomplish what Guru told you to do, Simran, Rehat and Gurbani. Don't be a wise-ass.
This comment for satkiran never say that any person here on this forum or any where else can speak for Guru, If Guru want to talk to you, he will do himself, he did not need us to speak for him. If you want to know what Guru thinks ask Guru Granth Sahib jee maharaj, take hukamnama.

Read the translation, Ang 874 SGGS Jee, Whole shabad.
 

If you're genuinely looking for some Spiritual information for peace or willing to investigate the nature of Self, then I would suggest you the following. Otherwise, if your sole intention is to debate or prove your point or just fun then please carry on as you wish.
 
The good place to start learning about the real Sikhism is from "Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji". It is a Sikh scripture that is the 11th Guru of Sikhs, IT was given the authority/Guruship by the 10th Sikh Guru. Sikhs have 10 Gurus and it was only during the 10th Guru's time that a formal religion/group (Khalsa) was established by giving them a distinct identity because of that time's need. Before the 10th Guru, they were normally called Sikhs but with no distinct indentiy. The 10th Guru chose not to include his writtings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji.
What I want to convey is: If you want to study something, then starting from a more gross form is not a good idea. So, again I suggest reading the source instead of just getting confused with personalized thinking of everyone around you. The reason is I say this because even in Sikhs there are different people who are not good spiritually, they are just like everyone else.
Recently Sikhs (like any other religion) have gone towards "Radical Interpretation" of their history and therefore going down the self-created-drain of darkness where there is always quarrel between this-vs-that. They just don't ever try to analyze the writings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji and just solely goes with interpretations that follows their point of view instead of the other way around.
You could see the following different groups within Sikhs these days.
Group-1: This is the most popular and could easily be traced on Internet. Religious youth are its main force. This group treats the history (after 1699 - Khalsa creation) as the sole indicator. This group claims that their Guru is Guru Granth Sahib Ji but they do not bother to seriously analyze the writing of Guru Granth Sahib Ji in the light in which it is written. They are so deeply concerned with the history after the creation of Khalsa (post 1699 or 1708) that they fail to see the history which took place between 1469 and 1699. They don't realize that they have neglected the history of 10 Gurus (around 230 years) and have just opted for the history of 10th Guru's last 9-10 years. They are just like other religious people who believe that their religion is the best. Group-2: This group mostly includes Scholars who have studied Guru Granth Sahib Ji deepy but from materialistic point of view. They are far better than the first group as they give importance to both the history periods. But their interpretation is more like Black-and-White world. They fail to see that the world where we live is domain of Laws and the teachings in Guru Granth Sahib Ji did not ask them to revolt against the Laws or reject the Laws. The teachings are merely pointing what is temporary vs what is permanent and how to get to the permanent while living in this world. But still they are far better than the first group. Group-3: Then comes a group who is a mixture of Group-1 and Group-2; sometimes they took one side and then sometimes took side of another group; not because they want to but they themselves are confused. Without the real Spiritual knowledge, they say things as per Group-2 but then eventually they will switch to Group-1. Group-4: This is the group who mostly have read the English transalations of Guru Granth Sahib Ji but not in the proper light. They try to reject all the rituals, traditions without understanding the real nature of this world. They are kind of more aggresive form of Group-2. They try to understand the higher concepts by dragging the higher concepts to their level of thinking instead of the other way around. They are always fighting with Group-1. Group-5: They are the rarest and rarely available on Internet. They do understand the real nature of this Universe and do understand that: "A person cannot live without performing the karmas. i.e one has to pick something out of the choices provided by the immediate environment.". They do see the core teachings of core Guru Granth Sahib Ji in proper light and therefore understand the purpose of Guru Granth Sahib Ji is to show us the proper path while living in this universe of Laws: Essence/Juice of all Scriptures (including Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji): The following are the core ideas of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: 
Purity of Mind (Karma): This is the first requirement on spiritual path. Purity of mind is achieved by staying away from filthy and investing in good, honest actions. Why there is a need to pure the mind, and how the impure mind is hindrance to real happiness, and how to purify the mind etc. all these topics are including in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Concentration of Mind (Upsana): When mind is purified, then the desire for concentration arises in mind.  One-pointedness of Mind is achieved through worship with full concentration so that mind does not create ripples (thoughts) to disturb us. The concentration is achieved by devotion and worship. What is Concentration, why it is important, uses/mis-uses of concentration, importance of concentration, and how to achieve one - all these topics could be found in Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Knowledge (Gyan): When the search of Self is done with purity and concentration of mind, one realises that the same God that once appeared as separate is one's own; in fact the entire universe appears to be one. There are various topics which could give one the real knowledge but in order to understand the real knowledge, one needs to be expert in the first 2 points and with the Kirpa of Guru (again explained in Guru Granth Sahib Ji).  Practically, the above mentioned juice could be obtained by (explained in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)
Bodily Cleanliness (Isnan), Charity: Do charity to needy i.e Charity of money, goods, knowledge, time etc. Meditation  

ਬਿਨੁ ਸਬਦੈ ਪਿਰੁ ਨ ਪਾਇਓ ਜਨਮੁ ਗਵਾਇਓ ਰੋਵੈ ਅਵਗੁਣਿਆਰੀ ਝੂਠੀ ॥ Without the Word of the Shabad, the Husband Lord is not found; the worthless, false bride wastes her life away, weeping and wailing