tSingh

Antinang, although i respect your sentiment, the advice I posted is timeless and has come from many brahmnishtti mahapurush including the brahmgyani in Xylitol's avatar, Baba Jvala Singh Ji Herkhowal (in fact you can see him in sidhasana with gyanmudra in the photo). Prtak darshan through ananyabhav bhakti does not necessarily require asana as you say, but to enter nirvikalap-smadhi requires concerted effort at closing down antahkaran-vritti. While naam begins as upasna, with practice it leads to smadhi. Therefore this advice about asana is not new, but is found in very old granths such as the last section of Mutki Marg, and others like Praan Sangali. Obviously when one has experienced turiya then potentially every asana is conducive because that chetan is completely pavittar and free of upadhi. But when you are still enslaved by haumai and totally at the behest of vasnas expressed through tan and man (which make their presence known as your bum goes numb!), then you should not pander to them under the illusion that bhagats experienced parmatma in alsorts of asanas.

Incorrect. Maybe the Udasin, but I've not found anything to suggest Nirmalay had murtian of devtas in their deras, in any of the maryadas written, in 19th century literature, in their mangalacharans, etc. Their line was always advaitvad/nirguna upasana. In fact I've rarely come across puranic material in nirmala compositions and commentaries. We should be careful not to propogate misinformation.

Surely Shaheediyan i could make every single of those arguments against raag kirtan;
- most people don't get any extra spiritual benefit from it
- most of global music doesn't have srutis.
- the focus of gurbani is our own condition not the raag
- it would only be preserving a tradition and nothing more
- we should all embrace synths and beat boxs

For me i think you've missed the point...which is the amazingly petty motivation behind changing the calander - 'we don't want anything to do with hindus, lets not rely on them'. the calendar should be should be opposed on this reason alone. Are with these types or against them? Whatever next? I hear that some demon brahmin originally came up with the word 'atma' and 'mukti' so lets get to work and change those traditions too.

Kam's absolutely correct, avoid all of gyani bhagvan singh's steeks like the plague. They contain lots of errors. I even recall hearing Jathedar Vedanti quoting from Saruktavali at a smagam a year ago or so.

Sri Narayan Hari Updesh is exactly that, the updesh of Sri (Pandit) Narayan Hari, Hari being a surname used by Nirmalay occasionally (often when writing in Hindi, Pandit Tara Singh Ji did the same and this text above was originally also in hindi). Pandit Narayan Singh Ji was one of the greatest saints and pandits of his era. Nirmal Virakat Kutiya in Haridvar was his asthan. The text is immense. It is written by Pandit Hardev Singh Ji and quotes liberally from a vast array of sanskrit vedantic material.

'Sree Naanak Purushotamam Param, Paraavar Naath
Yugal Charan Mam Bandnaa Dhar Par Dharikari Maath'

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Maharaj Ki Jai

Getting back to the point,

Vijaydeepji,

You are incorrect about Nirmalay not being Punjab from the beginning. Those early Nirmalay resided in what was then Punjab from the time of Guru Gobind Singh ji. If I remember correctly Baba Punjab Singh was sent to Khadur Sahib at this time. Likewise, the parampra held by the Nirmalay of Baba Sundar Singh Bhindranwale certainly has common individuals with many Nirmala upsamprdas, and hence as such considering that Pandit Tara Singh Narotam features in this parampra, who was a Sri Mahant of Panchayti Akhara, does link to those who reside at kumbh mela sites (all the panchayti akharas). I'd be interested to hear what someone like Baba Jagjit Singh Herkhowal thinks of this issue.

Lets have a go (apologies for any errors);

Its the famous opening mangalacharan in Kavi Santokh Singh Ji's 'Sri Nanak Prakash' often used in sampradai mangalacharans.

- Sri Naanak, Satguru Maharaj, the 'n-anek' being the singular or not many
- Purushottam, the 'utam' or highest among 'purush' or human beings/persons (this is traditionally given as an epithet of Bhagvaan in avatar form as Ram or Krishna emphasising the superiority of that apparent human form, in accordance with the stance of Kavi Santokh Singh that Satiguru is puran Hari avtar)
- Param, 'greatest'
- Praavar Naath, 'praavar' most superior master (in this context meaning superior to the realm of devtay)
- Yugal, 'both'
- Charan, Satiguru Maharaj's lotus 'feet'
- Mam, 'my'
- Bandanaa, namaskaar, salutations
- Dhar, the ground
- Par, on
- Dharikari, is placing
- Maath, head

So;

Oh Sri Nanak, greatest and most superior of beings, the master of all
I place my head to the ground in salutations to both your lotus feet

Happy gurpurab

nirvikalap being the end of the triputi of perciever, perception and percieved...only undifferentiated pure consciousness. the shunyavaadi void is the opposite to this state in the sense that this is the eternal, unchanging satchitanand (eternal, consciousness, bliss), i.e. nirguna parmatma. the word void has been used by Guru Maharaj to describe pure consciousness only.

sehaj smadhi i'd taken to be the same thing. smadhi marks the end of jap (vritti, mind events), nididhyasana is profound contemplation, smadhi is beyond that, so i can't see how it is constant jap...but i may be wrong. i took sehaj smadh to be emphasising the spontaneous 'nadari' that causes nirvikalap smadhi leading to jivanmukti when one has become pavittar.

hope that helps

ananya has different meanings depending on different samprdayas. For Sri Samprdaya of Ramamnuj or Gaudiya vaishnavs it is taken to mean 'exclusive' devotion, and they establish types of devotion in which there is a relationship between 'thou' and 'that'...because they accept a real distinction between self and braham. For Gurmat this is not the case, there is devotion toward that which is truly oneself. We accept only Braham and Maya. So our 'ananya' is not so much exclusive, but 'non-different'. Our forms of bhakti culminate with the visah between Jiva and Braham...in actual fact all we do is remove the veil of maya as Guru Maharaj has said Atma is Ram and Ram is Atma.

Antahkaran vritti means the mind events that flow constantly.

Upasana strictly means symbolic worship, we perform this through naam, but eventually move to the highest form, ahangreh upasana, deep meditation upon the Self.

Turiya is the chautha pad, amar pad, etc of Gurbani, the state beyond the three gunas, beyond time and space (also the three gunas), beyond subject and object (triputi), etc, etc. After which there is jivanmukti until the end of prarabdh karam (currently fructifying actions) have run their course, the attachment to the body ends and videhmukti meaning bodiless mukti.

There is a funny anecdote from the Dabistan involving Guru Hargobind and a wily sadhu. When in the darbar the sadhu sat in Baba Gurditta's chair, to which the sangat protested. The sadhu remarked that himself and baba gurditta are one and the same, no difference. Guru ji on hearing this asked the sadhu to meet with him. Guru ji explained that God is within all and is their true identity. To exemplify his point Guru ji pointed at a donkey and asked the sadhu what it was, to which he replied 'my lord, it is but you' to which they both laughed!

Its called dharmdhuja maryada because dharam dhuja was/is the haveli given to the then newly formed Panchayati Akhara as its central institution. It is in the heart of Patiala and is now presided over by the jovial Mahant Hari Singh. The original idea for the formation of a Nirmal Panchayti Akhara was a meeting at one of the kumbh melas, where the collective Nirmalay decided Mehtab Singh would fit the bill as a Sri Mahant. The Phulkian state maharajas put up the funds with the most coming from the Maharaja of Patiala. Later on the Sri Mahant set up and moved to the Nirmal Panchayati Akhara building in Kankhal, Haridwar. The original document of 'dastur ul amal' is in the library of Panchayati Akhara. Pandit Tara Singh Narotam aludes to more stipulations given than Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha describes. Some Singh Sabha types have wondered whether these stipulations were on the necessity of amritdhari rehit. Who knows, certainly no one without a key to the library. Remember though that this document is a template for the functioning of those sants and mahants linked directly to Nirmal Panchayti Akhara institutions, in other words the akharas at kumbh mela sites and a few other locations, plus most importantly for any Nirmala wishing to take part in the Ramat akhara. For example, my dadagurdev was from a particular parampra who eventually ended up spending the majority of his time with the Ramat Akhara, therefore this maryada applies to that context. Likewise, another kind-of-shish of my gurdev has moved from his dera in Bhatinda district to being nominated the new Mahant of Gurdwara Baal Lila at Patna Sahib, so again his maryada may well change slightly (I'm not sure what the new maryada is and how closely it follows dastur ul amal). So clearly it would be a mistake to regard this as the 'Nirmala maryada' since a search for one is ultimately pointless.

here we go again...

This topic so far seems to be classic evidence of the problem the panth is suffering from at the moment (hence the rise of people like Kala Afghana); modern Sikhs' bottom-up thinking; 'I don't agree with this, therefore Guruji definately never did it'!

please, posters, try not to simply discuss issues at an emotional level...at least try to find some evidence first.


refs used for the below:

Kahn Singh Nabha's 'Mahan Kosh'
Giani Ishar Singh Nara's 'Safarnama te Zafarnama'
Dr. Ganda Singh 'Hukamnamae'
Parvinder Kaur 'Kar Sewa: Historical Gurdwaras'


1) Kahn Singh Nabha (a Singh Sabhia) has three entries, for each of Guru Gobind Singh ji's wives.

2) There is historical evidence for each wife's existence such as a smadhi for Mata Jeeto, now called Gurdwara Agampur at Sri Anandpur Sahib (she is recorded to have died while Guruji was there). She was cremated by Guru ji himself.

3) Mata Sundri was the mother of Baba Ajit Singh ji. The haveli where she lived and died in Delhi is recorded in Mahan Kosh is now Gurdwara Mata Sundri ji in Delhi.

4) According to the 'Kar Sewa' and 'Hukamname' texts, both Mata Sahib Kaur and Mata Sundri issued hukamname to the Khalsa after Guruji from the haveli in Delhi.

5) Nabha's kosh records Mata Sundri as being the mother of three of the Sahibzaday, Baba Jujhar Singh ji, Baba Fateh Singh ji and Baba Joravar Singh ji.

6) Mata Sahib Kaur's samadhi is near Sri Guru Harkirshan's.

7) I think the author of the much copied and pasted article that started this dicussion has shown great ignorance himself by declaring that Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and Giani Ishar Singh Nara are ignorant of Punjabi cultural practices!

Vivek Pradīpikā by Tīrath Singh Nirmalā

The Bibeksār was composed by Srīmān Sant Bhāī Adan Shāh Jī in the mid 18th Century.

It is a masterful exposition of the metaphysical and theological principles of Gurmat Sidhānt. It remains unparalleled amongst the adhyātamic literature of the Sevāpanthī Sampradāya.

Tīrath Singh Nirmalā was initiated into the Nirmala Sampradāya and schooled in its traditions by Srīmān Sant Sher Singh Jī. He provides an extensive commentary that is at once illuminating and authentic.

Paperback, 338 pages,
ISBN 978-0-9562367-0-8

This will be available from Monday. Orders can be made using paypal through this website;

www.nectpublications.com

The website also has a sample excerpt from this text and Bhavrasamrit Tika as pdf files.

(please don't cut and paste this)

I was thinking on a bus journey recently about why the Nihangs despire the Nirmalay so dearly. Maybe it was the dhotis and lack of kach, kirpan and karra (according to Gyani Gyan Singh) in the Nirmal Panchayti Akhara code, but it has become standard for a Nihang to spout, 'creation of the British' when asked about them. Since they clearly were not, how did that view take shape and why?

Looking at Nirmala history, there was a diversity, but with some central points of commonality. Arguably this diversity stretches to its upmost with an increased politicisation. By the mid 1800s, we have Bhai Maharaj Singh Ji using all his influence to bring about an uprising against mleccha raaj, and on the other hand you have Mauj Prakash informing on the mutineers.

So from a Nihang perspective, the Nirmalay in the 1860s sided with the traitors of the panth the Phulkian misldars with the institution of the Nirmal Panchayti Akhara. Obviously, such sadhus would argue that if someone wants to serve the saints with land and money then we must let them, and thereby downplay the politics of this patronisation (I think the Dalai Lama was accused of the same a few years back). But no doubt the reality was that they would then never challenge those who supplied monetary support for their work. Clearly then, considering that the Phulkian states had supported the British for their own preservation, the Nirmalay were the religious equivalent of those traitors...but this raises a big question! If the Nirmalay were traitors for accepting money from those who had acted against the Sikh Raj, what does that make of Buddha Dal's argument for taking Congress money after 1984! hehe.

A similarly inaccurate statement was made by W.H. McLeod in his 'The Sikhs' that due to the lack of land grant records prior to the 19th century, it must be presumed that they only came into existence then.

Both positions are inaccurate however. The most obvious for Nihangs is Lt. John Malcolm's 'Sketch of the Sikhs' (1805-12) which describes the 'Nirmalas' in contrast to the Akalis by name. Yet more interesting is a fairly recent paper pulling together different sources, Sulakhan Singh (a scholar who has little sympathy for samprdaas, terming them 'heterodox') sets out the historical evidence on Nirmalay dharmarths or land grants. Until recently it has been assumed that the Nirmalay recieved just as much financial support as the Udasis (who enjoyed a lot more during the 19th century). However, evidence shows they were getting a lot less. Why?

Because as Sulakhan Singh points out, many early Nirmalay are recorded to have refused these offers from Misldars. Names like Lakha Singh Nirmala, Pandit Bhagat Singh Nirmala, Thakur Dyal Singh Nirmala, Pandit Nihal Singh are just a few of those who rejected them. The first two mentioned are recorded to have been given theirs in the 1750s and 60s. Pandit Nihal Singh in the 1800s is said to have been offered land by Maharaj Ranjit Singh, who ripped up the offer in the Maharaj's face. Thakur Dyal Singh Ji did much the same. Of those who did accept them, one records Bibi Pradhan, the daughter of Baba Ala Singh, donating land to Dera Baba Gandha Singh in Barnala in the 1750s. It is important to recognise that the link with the Phulkian misls and particularly the Maharajs of Patiala started as far back as this. Out of the Baba Langar Singh episode at Dera Baba Gandha Singh, Pandit Nikka Singh, Baba Langar Singh's shish then was chosen by Baba Ala Singh as his child's teacher and a house was built for him in Patiala. My own gurdev currently maintains a similar dera next to Qila Mubarak in Patiala where another Nirmala was housed to teach the Maharaj's chidren once upon a time. Another very early example of dharmarth to Nirmalay is to Dera Baba Dargah Singh in Kankhal, which is recorded to have been donated land by Rai Ahmed in the 1720s after Baba ji's helping out in a small battle.

Later on more Nirmalay did accept land grants, which was to cope with the costs of setting up at the Ardh and Maha Kumbh Melas. Nirmalay started attending regularly and independently towards the end of the 1700s. Later at one Kumbh Mela, it was the whole Nirmala congregation who decided to enable greater prachaar by founding a Panchayti Akhara. It was at this point (and not the other way around) that the Phulkian misaldars approached to provide the financial support.

So clearly a) McLeod hasn't done enough research to make such generalisations - no surprise there, as the same can be said of his comments on the Sevapanthis, and the Nirmala Nihang issue was more complicated than it seemed. The Nirmalay had already prior to the Lahore darbar, made important links with Baba Ala Singh. It was therefore only inevitable that the Phulkian misldars/maharajas would have maintained a close link with the Nirmalay. Further, the Nirmalay are shown to be uncomfortable about recieving such offers. This, combined with early post 1708 Sikh history explains why it takes the majority of Nirmalay a good 50 years to finally appear in Punjabi land records.

Kam's absolutely correct, avoid all of gyani bhagvan singh's steeks like the plague. They contain lots of errors. I even recall hearing Jathedar Vedanti quoting from Saruktavali at a smagam a year ago or so.

Sri Narayan Hari Updesh is exactly that, the updesh of Sri (Pandit) Narayan Hari, Hari being a surname used by Nirmalay occasionally (often when writing in Hindi, Pandit Tara Singh Ji did the same and this text above was originally also in hindi). Pandit Narayan Singh Ji was one of the greatest saints and pandits of his era. Nirmal Virakat Kutiya in Haridvar was his asthan. The text is immense. It is written by Pandit Hardev Singh Ji and quotes liberally from a vast array of sanskrit vedantic material.

(please don't cut and paste this)

I was thinking on a bus journey recently about why the Nihangs despire the Nirmalay so dearly. Maybe it was the dhotis and lack of kach, kirpan and karra (according to Gyani Gyan Singh) in the Nirmal Panchayti Akhara code, but it has become standard for a Nihang to spout, 'creation of the British' when asked about them. Since they clearly were not, how did that view take shape and why?

Looking at Nirmala history, there was a diversity, but with some central points of commonality. Arguably this diversity stretches to its upmost with an increased politicisation. By the mid 1800s, we have Bhai Maharaj Singh Ji using all his influence to bring about an uprising against mleccha raaj, and on the other hand you have Mauj Prakash informing on the mutineers.

So from a Nihang perspective, the Nirmalay in the 1860s sided with the traitors of the panth the Phulkian misldars with the institution of the Nirmal Panchayti Akhara. Obviously, such sadhus would argue that if someone wants to serve the saints with land and money then we must let them, and thereby downplay the politics of this patronisation (I think the Dalai Lama was accused of the same a few years back). But no doubt the reality was that they would then never challenge those who supplied monetary support for their work. Clearly then, considering that the Phulkian states had supported the British for their own preservation, the Nirmalay were the religious equivalent of those traitors...but this raises a big question! If the Nirmalay were traitors for accepting money from those who had acted against the Sikh Raj, what does that make of Buddha Dal's argument for taking Congress money after 1984! hehe.

A similarly inaccurate statement was made by W.H. McLeod in his 'The Sikhs' that due to the lack of land grant records prior to the 19th century, it must be presumed that they only came into existence then.

Both positions are inaccurate however. The most obvious for Nihangs is Lt. John Malcolm's 'Sketch of the Sikhs' (1805-12) which describes the 'Nirmalas' in contrast to the Akalis by name. Yet more interesting is a fairly recent paper pulling together different sources, Sulakhan Singh (a scholar who has little sympathy for samprdaas, terming them 'heterodox') sets out the historical evidence on Nirmalay dharmarths or land grants. Until recently it has been assumed that the Nirmalay recieved just as much financial support as the Udasis (who enjoyed a lot more during the 19th century). However, evidence shows they were getting a lot less. Why?

Because as Sulakhan Singh points out, many early Nirmalay are recorded to have refused these offers from Misldars. Names like Lakha Singh Nirmala, Pandit Bhagat Singh Nirmala, Thakur Dyal Singh Nirmala, Pandit Nihal Singh are just a few of those who rejected them. The first two mentioned are recorded to have been given theirs in the 1750s and 60s. Pandit Nihal Singh in the 1800s is said to have been offered land by Maharaj Ranjit Singh, who ripped up the offer in the Maharaj's face. Thakur Dyal Singh Ji did much the same. Of those who did accept them, one records Bibi Pradhan, the daughter of Baba Ala Singh, donating land to Dera Baba Gandha Singh in Barnala in the 1750s. It is important to recognise that the link with the Phulkian misls and particularly the Maharajs of Patiala started as far back as this. Out of the Baba Langar Singh episode at Dera Baba Gandha Singh, Pandit Nikka Singh, Baba Langar Singh's shish then was chosen by Baba Ala Singh as his child's teacher and a house was built for him in Patiala. My own gurdev currently maintains a similar dera next to Qila Mubarak in Patiala where another Nirmala was housed to teach the Maharaj's chidren once upon a time. Another very early example of dharmarth to Nirmalay is to Dera Baba Dargah Singh in Kankhal, which is recorded to have been donated land by Rai Ahmed in the 1720s after Baba ji's helping out in a small battle.

Later on more Nirmalay did accept land grants, which was to cope with the costs of setting up at the Ardh and Maha Kumbh Melas. Nirmalay started attending regularly and independently towards the end of the 1700s. Later at one Kumbh Mela, it was the whole Nirmala congregation who decided to enable greater prachaar by founding a Panchayti Akhara. It was at this point (and not the other way around) that the Phulkian misaldars approached to provide the financial support.

So clearly a) McLeod hasn't done enough research to make such generalisations - no surprise there, as the same can be said of his comments on the Sevapanthis, and the Nirmala Nihang issue was more complicated than it seemed. The Nirmalay had already prior to the Lahore darbar, made important links with Baba Ala Singh. It was therefore only inevitable that the Phulkian misldars/maharajas would have maintained a close link with the Nirmalay. Further, the Nirmalay are shown to be uncomfortable about recieving such offers. This, combined with early post 1708 Sikh history explains why it takes the majority of Nirmalay a good 50 years to finally appear in Punjabi land records.

Gurfatehji,

Atma cannot be sargun for simple reasons. For Atma and Braham to be one and the same (advaita) they must be of the same essence (sadchidanand). When consciousness is associated with the pure sattvaguna of maya it is called Parmatma/Bhagvan/Ishvar. This is the cause of the gross and subtle manifestation. Braham in sargun form is the ruler of maya. In turn, that same consciousness afflicted by agyaan becomes the jeeva, but it is not possessing sargun attributes in any true sense, for that would imply a real modification of its nature - in other words Maya has given it actual qualities. This form (jeev) which appears to have qualities is a result of ignorance (i.e. the quality of agency, of quality of independence, etc). Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji has written in Gyan Prabodh that Atma and Braham are no different and that their shared qualities are being free of karam, death, difference, illusion, desire, etc. Therefore Atma remains nirgun in essence. Its apparent form as a dynamic living thinking feeling independent being is the result of agyaan.

Hope that helps.

t

The only problem is, if you give yourself only four options you'll find that to be your answer. That explanation you give above is clearly the answer Bahadaur Ali Shah has come to. There are numerous angles on this, not four. So for some nirmalay i've met they fall somewhere between two and a wee bit of four but in a more sophisticated manner than the positions above. Truth always existed, but the means to truth is shaped according to the context (yug dharma). Hence you can have continuity with prior yugas (as Bhai Gurdas certainly maintains in his explanation of waheguru mantr and Guru Arjun Dev Ji including the shabads of the bhats), yet in kalyug the most appropriate expression of yugdharma being gurmat. The implications of that are applicable to all traditions within kalyug...to varying degrees. Now, the danger of number four as you've presented it there is that Sikhi becomes very little (my value judgement of course) other than an appeal to reconsider the parent-tradition your born into in a new light. If that were entirely true you wouldn't anticipate there being philosophical, psychological, phenomenological consistency in the Guru's teachings...since it should actively avoid making hard and fast positions that might conflict with prior revealed tradition. It should simply express the truth as such in the most simplistic of terms without allowing for doctrinal demarkations. This is where this fourth theory falls apart. The samprdais have written masses of literature highlighting the consistency of gurmat updesh, thoroughly enlarging on the language of the Gurus and the sidhant (reasoned philosophical conclusions) it is based upon. Even James Massey's preliminary analysis of the language of Gurmat shows its to be largely based upon vaishnav terms for Parmatma (100s) and shaastra based terminlogy, compared to Islamic (maybe three islamic terms used for God?). Prior to that you have Bhai Gurdas Ji in his kabit svayay placing gurmat as the perfect darsana after having talked of the earlier schools of philosophy. He doesn't mention any continuity with Islamic schools of thought. Take for example Sidh Gosht. It is incredibly specific on certain philosophical and doctrinal angles. Is this a matt open to all monotheistic hindus and muslims? Clearly not sarguni vaishnavs for a start, or any muslim who doesn't accept the centrality of advaita nirgun mukti, the four fold division of consciousness, the role of karam, the emphasis on hari avtara, etc. This is as specific a matt as any other in India at that time. Guru Maharaj corrects the Naths, and provides specific adhyatmic clarification of their deliberately ambiguous metaphors. Specifically while grihasth dharma has highlighted chaar purushaarths, sikhi is primarily mokshartha alike vedanta in that sense. Alike vedanta, morality is defined in relation to that goal, through the pratically oriented yams and niyams. To conclude from that that Sikhi as it stands is not an autonomous tradition as such since it lacks formal codes of moral conduct, is to fundamentally fail to recognise what Sikhi is and to chain it to an semitic understanding of how a religion should work (turning it into a house of heresy that should be burned to the ground from what i hear!). How that worked practically is that like all traditions that existed in india at that time it worked at a level in which everyone could take something from it...but within that there were hierarchies of commitment to the specific nuances of Gurmat. We have bhagat jaidev and bhagat surdas shabads, yet those of their traditions would fundamentally disagree with the sidhant of gurmat. To my mind thats what we're talking about...and of course there are further opinions i've come across.

No Chatanga, the Guru is said to have helped Bahadur Shah a MATTER of years after his sons were killed by the Moghuls. I think that constitutes a MAJOR element of the Guru's example that is ignored today...that he didn't tarnish a whole community with the same brush and that at some point in life there must come a process of looking to the future rather than getting lost in anger about the past...yet he sought justice against the INDIVIDUALS who caused it like Wazir Khan. That looking to the furture does not mean an end to pushing for justice...but that young Sikhs are not sold the idea that Sikhs are still being actively murdered in Punjab BECAUSE they are Sikh.

Any Singh who gets picked up by the police and websites have a post on it. But I'll give you an example, a friend over here (young mazhbi and mona so people can understand why) was driving a car and got involved in a small accident. the police (sardarjis) arrived and beat the living shit out of him. kept him for a few days refusing to tell the family where he was, refused to release him, continued with the beatings, and to this day have his driving license even though he had nothing to do with it. Does this sound familiar? His name didn't pop up on pathic.org.

A couple of days ago I was getting on a bus, and the bus was holding up the traffic, a police man ran up doing the angry bang the bus with his stick routine, a mazbhi bloke whose wife and small kid were already on the bus was getting on, the policeman after hitting the bus started violently shaking the man calling a bhenchod etc in front of his wife and kid...for what? He wouldn't have done it to a jat or anyone else...he had dark skin. And I was thinking what his kid would be taking from this. These are fairly common incidents in Punjab aren't they? This is how india is. People pick on other people, the police are notoriously vicious...in every state. If you look posh they don't touch you. If you look poor, they go for you. Those images of adi-dharmi women being beaten with lathis by a group of policemen recently on TV, etc, etc.

Are these direct attacks on Sikhi, or the way police work in Punjab and other parts of India? Is this an issue of Sikhi under attack, or law and order in India being pretty dubious? Does this mean as many young Sikhs on forums imply, that punjabi Sikhs are 'asleep' to this, or sell outs? So surely the issue should be 'lets push for human rights and justice for the death of all innocents, of any community in India?'. You raise that slogan and I'll stand right behind you. You start shouting about how 'All Hindus are facist' and have tried to destroy sikhi since its inception, 'we want a Khalistan' (or rather a jat-istan) then I walk away. I believe in secularism as a political model..otherwise you end up with Lal Masjid situations and attacks on hairdressers and manicurists and beauticians and jeans-sellers and imported ice-cream walas or whatever!

I did not know that Chatanaga about the ISYF doing that...I'm sure the decision to label them a terrorist organisation has made them actively disassociate themselves from that side of things. If what you say is true then I am impressed...and you are right on that particular point. If you have a reference for that please pass it on, since it needs to be posted on all these forums for young kids to know that someone is talking a more responsible line.

nirvikalap being the end of the triputi of perciever, perception and percieved...only undifferentiated pure consciousness. the shunyavaadi void is the opposite to this state in the sense that this is the eternal, unchanging satchitanand (eternal, consciousness, bliss), i.e. nirguna parmatma. the word void has been used by Guru Maharaj to describe pure consciousness only.

sehaj smadhi i'd taken to be the same thing. smadhi marks the end of jap (vritti, mind events), nididhyasana is profound contemplation, smadhi is beyond that, so i can't see how it is constant jap...but i may be wrong. i took sehaj smadh to be emphasising the spontaneous 'nadari' that causes nirvikalap smadhi leading to jivanmukti when one has become pavittar.

hope that helps

Just been listening to it, and thought it was worth mentioning that the Ardas has some similarity to the Nirmala ardas. The Hazoor Sahib ardas mentions a much greater list of places including many key historical sites - it also, akin to the Nirmala ardas, mentions ishnan in Ganga and Godavri.

Gurfateh

Although the Taksal gatka is stated as Sampooran rehras, it omits quite a few other dohras, chaupais and swaiyas from what are considered the oldest, most complete sampooran rehras (Sri Takhat Sachkhand Hazoor Sahib and Buddha Dal maryada di rehras).

This is a full detailed list of the Dasam Bani section of Sri Hazoor Sahib rehras. You will need a Buddha Dal gutkha for all the extra dohrae, chaupai and swaiyae:

starts:

1) Chapai from 'Buhur asur ka kaatus matha' hence shorter here than Buddha Dal rehras

2) Chaupai 'humanri karo...'

3) Aril 'Sunai...'

4) Chaupai 'Sumbut..'

5) Kabibach Dohra 'jo nij prabh mo...'

6) Dohra 'har har...'

7) Dohra 'jub aais prabh ko...'

8) Kabibach Dohra 'Thand beyo...'

9) Dohra 'jai jai tumray...'

10) Dohra 'Tin bediyan ke..'

11) Dohra 'Thikir four...' - minor detail; Hazoor Sahib break this into a second Dohra at 'Tegh Bahadur ke chulut...' whereas Buddha Dal runs straight through.

12) Swaiya 'chutri ko poot ho...'

13) Dohra 'Dasam katha...' - minor detail; this is the second half of the Buddha Dal's longer Dohra from the same section of Krishnaavtar

14) Swaiya 'Dhan jio teh ko...'

15) Dohra 'Raam katha...'

16) Chaupai 'Jo eh kathaa...'

17) Dohra 'Netr tung..' - minor detail; again Sri Hazoor Sahib break this into a second dohra at 'sadh asadh..' whereas Buddha Dal run straight through

18) Swaiya 'Pai guhai..'

19) Dohra 'Sugul dwar ko...'

I haven't got a Taksali guthka, so I can't recall which of these they have in their rehras.

Also, Buddha Dal guthka have more dasam bani than Sri Hazoor Sahib in rehras.

Does anyone know about the Nanaksar rehras, which I've been told is extended?

Gurfateh

Maybe this is old news to some of you, but T-Series have just released 'Sodar Rehras Sahib te Aarti' by Bhai Binod Singh ji Hazoori Rehrasia at Takhat Sachkhand Sri Hazoor Sahib. The recording also includes Ardas with nagara. Likewise Rehras is Sampooran Rehras Sahib Abchal Nagar di maryada style.

Go get!

Yes I noticed your Baba Jagjit Singh post on sikhsangat only got questions about rehit! But then what do we expect when one of the groups who have been most appealing to young punjabi converts in the last ten years actively propogate the rejection of katha!

I agree with much of the above, but you must be careful...sadh sangat is both the knowers (gyanis in old sense of word) and seekers (jagyasi/jagyasu). A sangat without a knower is admittedly according to nirmalay, udasis and sevapanthis not particularly useful as you've stated, but conviction is also affirmed by clear minded seekers too.

I think you'd be surprised at how many scholars and sants there are who still do katha like Baba Jagjit Singh Ji. Admittedly few videsis are interested or aware of them since they don't fit the white chola bill. I heartily recommend anyone staying in punjab for more than two weeks to watch the day's event news on local punjabi doordarshan channel and you'll find out about all yr local deras and samprda sants. Since both Baba Jagjit Singh and Baba Ishar Singh rarewale talk slightly modified advaita vedanta (unlike some Udasis and most of the remaining modern sevapanthis) you may be pleased to hear that the schooling in sanskrit vedantic shastra still continues for a few young Nirmalay at Kashi.

One query for Neo which I've mentioned before. This thing about Bhai Dya Singh samprdai...maybe on issues of maryada (even then I don't think so), but on sidhant and everything else there is no difference with all other Nirmalay. By differentiating like this I think its a bit misleading, as though there is an actual difference between the lineages coming from Bhai Dya Singh and Bhai Dharam Singh (roughly half half of over 30). To clarify what I'm talking about - the five Nirmalay from Kashi were put under the guidance of Bhai Dya Singh and Bhai Dharam Singh. From them many upsamprdais (sub-lineages) began. The people you refer to (and in the case of Rarewale, refer to themselves as) Bhai Dya Singh samprdai are actually usually Baba Bir Singh Nauragabad upsamprdai (which there are a few variations of). This is knit picking, but on these issues I feel its a bit of a diservice.

Gurfateh

You seem to have an overly Christain/Ismalic conception of God. Dualistic thinking would presume God as somehow separate from ourselves yet Sikhi and the Gurus reject this ideology. We all essentialy contain within us God, in the terms that we all have an aatma which is an aspect of God. there is nothing but God. Our ego clouds realising our aatma through maya/our own ignorance. Whether or not we achieve to spiritual heights or not, is not due to God's wrath but due to our own karm (actions). At the same time in Sikhi there is grace from God through bhagti. In this sense Sikhi is a fusion of devotional bhakti and spiritual aspiration to acquire wisdom (jnaan). Realise yourself and you realise God. Love and realise the Naam you will attain Brahm-Gyan.

As Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) and later reiterated by Bhai Gurdas in his varan 'Take on step towards God and God will take a thousand toward you' - in otherwords, start aspiring and grace will come.