OnPathToSikhi

​I did not get your point. Can you please elaborate?
People can use their Bhagtee which they have done, for wrong purposes too.
Bhul chuk maaf

Jawaddi is amazing. 

@Sher How long have you lived in Punjab? How many villages have you stayed in and for how many days? All you are doing it quote online news reports. That is not the correct way to judge how a particular society is working. I have lived in Punjab and moved around in many villages all my life. Caste observations are there but I am restricting myself to Gurdwarey issue. Its nowhere like you are portraying. 
I have been dragged into endless arguments online where people like you keep on coming up with online links and talk out of no practical ground knowledge. I remember a hindu guy from England who had seemingly endless online and he would quote chapters and chapters trying to prove that Hinduism was the best religion and the vedantic spirituality was the highest point in world spirituality and so on and so forth. He himself had never even once visited India! And I tried to counter him saying that Hindu society was very oppresive towards lower castes and that they had trampled over the lower castes for thousands of years. But he would refute my arguments and come up with online links and chapters and chapters of books. I used to wonder how much time and energy he had to do such online research. I gave up. And you know what happened? He had been talking for a while about trying to find a Guru for himself in India. He made a journey and stayed with his relatives in Delhi. He visited some teerth asthaans. He kept up his journalling on the forums. And what turned out? All his illusion about the India society and its glorious vedic ideals turned out to be false. He then started condemning common Indian Hindus and called them as unread and uneducated and this and that. He still would not accept that his utopian ideas based solely on his online reading and offline books were wrong in the first place. He just took to blame Indian Hindu masses for their Intelligence and understanding.
 
I am feeling that this present conversation is going to take a similar direction. I hardly ever post on these forums because in this present times of Kaljug version 2.0 (reloaded) even a smallest spark can start a wildfire; everyone is ready to argue and fight. I shall drop the topic here. I have said that as far as visiting gurdwarey is concerned and partaking in langar, the situation is nowhere as is being presented by you. I say this based on real life experience of 40 years in Panjab. I do not need to study any report online to make a judgement. Yes the caste observations are there but I commented on Gurdwarey situation.

​Bro, you cannot deny that miracles were performed by Satguru jee. We need to understand that Satguru jee was egoless/vikarless and performed miracles for the benefit of mankind. In Gurmat, performing miracles to satisfy one's ego or under the influence of greed or any other vikar, is prohibited.
Also remember, what seems like a miracle in one age, could possibly be explained by science, in another age.
Ridhiyan Sidhiyan do exist. There is no doubt about that. God dwells in our bodies, so it makes sense to believe that we have tremendous hidden potential.
Bhul chuk maaf

Listen brothers, I know what you are trying to say but try and get the point I am trying to convey. Casteism does exist in Sikh community, of course. And the fact that in many places there are gurdwarey such as Mazabhi, ramgarhiya, ravidassia gurdwarey. But nobody stops anyone from visiting any gurdwara. A mazhabhi does matha-tek in other gurdwarey and nobody objects. Same with langar. The individual cases of dispute are about control at the village and dispute is never truly religious in nature unlike Hindu community where the dispute is truly religious in nature.
The issue in the video you posted is a dispute about labour wages. In the second video it talks about discrimination, which I agree does exist. But the discrimination is about control and management. Its not about rules of who can visit which place. not a officially socially accepted norm. It has always been a deviation from the norm. That is why I said till now I have never seen a case of any dispute in my personal life. My rishteydarian are spread out all over southern Panjab with my own village in Haryana near Kaithal, my relatives in Patiala, Sangrur, Nabha. My Nanke in Faridkot district, my massian in Bathinda region, my Bhuaa jis in Fatehgarh Sahib region, my other relatives in Ludhiana etc. The individual cases are mostly rooted in other reasons such as control and caste domination and not truly religious issue. Yes caste observations is a social fact in all punjabi communities. But you can travel all over Punjab and see that even though people follow caste practices, there are no norms such as low caste being openly banned from visiting a Gurdwara. Its a complex issue to explain and all I can say is, do not form a final opinion based upon one or two news report which are often politically manipulated. 

Dude. I'm surprised you waste your time on this type of shit.....
 
I've seen enough 'riddhian siddhian' from the likes of Paul Daniels, Copperfield, David Blaine and 'Garbo the amazing sword swallower' already.

Please everyone stop these things: Who can sit on Tabiya or not.......
First of all, this is my thinking:
- I'm against those people who dogmatically say that women CANNOT sit on tabiya while menstruating and they go extra mile to prove their point.
- At the same time, I'm also against those people who dogmatically say that women CAN sit on tabiya while menstruating. These so-called equality finders also go extra mile to prove their point.
So, bottom line is both parties are not coming from real Spiritual experiences, they are merely saying.
Secondly, I request you to please read this throughly BEFORE responding.
Now, let me ask both parties the following questions:
For those who say women could sit on Tabiya while menstruating:
For how many times the woman in question sat on Tabiya when she was NOT menstruating? Practially, I found very rare, but for sake of proving their point-of-view-of-equality they would want to sit on Tabiya. In other words, your intention to sit on Tabiya is NOT love but just your mind/ego (remember mind's responsibility is to create doubts either way). Practically, I've seen Spiritual women prefering not to sit on Tabiya while menstruating, noone asked them to do so, it's just their internal feeling out of respect. Let's say, you're on menstruating cycle (with the thing in place inside) and on a nice morning you're eating breakfast and while eating the blood starts coming out, then let me know what your feeling is? Won't you stop eating for a split second i.e a thought crossing your mind? So, how would you expect that you can sit on Tabiya and do path respectfully. Watch your mind set during that period, it should give you some clue. During this period the energy is expanding and outward directed. Isn't Spirituality about turning inward? Is sitting on Tabiya the only way to remember God; it sounds like so as some people insist so much to sit on Tabiya during that time? For those who say women could not sit on Tabiya while menstruating:
Why can't they sit? Isn't God Himself present in the menstruation blood? Isn't Spirituality very above all these physical characterics? Isn't this whole body is filth covered with earth (skin). This damn body is full to filth (blood, salvia, and mucus everywhere)? Do you know that for the generation of Mind powers (some say Spiritual powers), Menstruation is the best time? Have you ever read Occult or Tantar material where menstruating blood along with semen has lot of powers? BlackMagic (because of centripetal/expanding energy) uses menstruating blood. Now, here what's happening in this case, people trying to dump the deeper meaning tuk (nothing is clean in this world) without reaching that higher level to practice it. It is NOT black and white.
People mix 2 different things here. In Spiritual journey, there are certain things which meant different for different level of people. e.g Would you allow a child of 2 years to cross the road by himself? No. But when the same child is grown up, he is instructed to cross the road alone. Same way, there are many things in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which one does need to follow till one reaches certain level and then the Arth/Meaning of those tuks change Itself (one does not need to take another meaning, the thinking automatically changes as per the level). In other words, the person knows the deeper meaning of the previous tuks.
e.g Let me share a story of a Bhagat Namdev Ji with you. Bhagat Namdev Ji did darshan of Sirgun roop of Waheguru 72 times. Once a Bramgyani came to his village and there were number of other Sadhus there. One Sadhu requested the Brahmgyani to tell them that which bhagat is Kacha/Not-fully-prepared and which is Pakka/Fully-prepared for real knowledge.  That Brahmgyani started touching each sadhu's head and told that everyone is Pakka Except Bhagat Namdev Ji. Bhagat Namdev Ji was upset at this because he was thinking that he is getting Waheguru's darshan everytime he remembers, then why that Bramgyani called him Kacha/not-fully-prepared. Bhagat Namdev asked the same question to Sirgun roop of Waheguru. Sirgun roop of Waheguru asked Bhagat Namedev to go to one Sadhu at particular place. Bhagat Namdev went to that place and saw that there is Sadhu but he was standing on "Salgram". Bhagat Namdev was very updset at this: Whyy GOD sent him to a Sadhu who has placed his foot on the "Salgram" (a stone which is worshipped as the Vishnu).  THen that Saint told Bhagat Namdev to place his feet where there is NO GOD. Then, that Saint told bhagat Namdev: that's why you were told kacha. After this Namdev got BrahmGyan and then he utered: "Ram bole Ram bole Ram bolda, sabna gata de wich Ram bolda".
This story is NOT asking one to abandon the rules. In-fact, it is stating that he is beyond everything and anything. But in order to reach that level, one needs to follow certain rules and being respectful is part of it. One cannot hit the sky (Nirgun) as Target, he/she needs something to aim the target.
It is NEITHER a matter of if women can sit on Tabiya, NOR it is a matter of if women are pure/impure during menstruating. It is just a matter of showing respect to the Guru as long as you're under the Laws of universe. Once you cross certain level, then things start to change: You no longer want to sit on Tabiya for some time as you're always accompanied by God. Things are different at different level. Have you ever visited any real Sant which would give you different answer depending upon the asker. It's not about the Truth, its about how you understand it. Otherwise, Truth is only God (Ek Onkar) and the rest is the explanation of that Truth.

Just listened to the following counter argument which is convincing although I don't agree in the manor in which the speaker begins to address and insult Sant Hari Singh ji. Would have been much better if they had just stuck to the points without getting personal or name calling.
I do understand how ladies would find his 'apaviter' remarks offensive but most ladies will also agree that sitting on the tabeya of Guru maharaj whilst on their period is a risk that most would not take. My mother told me how at our local gurdwara one lady did exactly that and soiled the sheets badly to the extent that all of Guru ji's sheets had to be changed. So whilst precautions can be taken there is a chance that there might be spillage and to preserve the sanctity of the specific location it should be avoided.
Whilst the sangat made a stand and sought clarification, the manor in which it was done was just disgraceful and should not be applauded or encouraged.
 
 

This is just outrageous! Trying to make sense out of this and it is just unexplainable!
We have goons in disguise of fake and rotten singhs. This is a new challenge for the panth. Not that this totally new, but this is on the rise given the recent incidents, This could also be a sign that the fake baba deras are about to crumble and these goons are on the run now.

This is just outrageous! Trying to make sense out of this and it is just unexplainable!
We have goons in disguise of fake and rotten singhs. This is a new challenge for the panth. Not that this totally new, but this is on the rise given the recent incidents, This could also be a sign that the fake baba deras are about to crumble and these goons are on the run now.

​Sher, how long have you been on this forum? I'm sure that you know by know not to misrepresent Gurbani here.

Videos clarifies a lot of things. I am with the Baba ji. The sangat seemed to have been worked up, for obvious reasons, to create such misunderstandings.

Videos clarifies a lot of things. I am with the Baba ji. The sangat seemed to have been worked up, for obvious reasons, to create such misunderstandings.

Clearly dirty politics at play here which cost the life of an innocent citizen.  Dirty Diversion tactics from important Sikh issues.
 

SikhKoj absolutely hit the nail on the head  " Only they are pure, O Nanak within whose minds the Lord abides " 
Sadly these type of people causing havoc in Gurudawaras resulting in Police presence absolutely disgrace. Theres many of these events happening and posted on youtube , where sikhs boycott a katha , fights start . I personally believe the agenda is different , may be a personal grudge .
I'm no katha vachak or claim to know Gurbani , in fact its the opposite but my 2 ps worth on this is that The Gurbani shabad pasted by SikhKoj sums it up , if a person has love for the almighty , true love one would automatically know within there inner selves , in terms of pure or not , are they genuine or not .
 
 

Maybe to a tosser like you, the systematic abuse and degradation of a vulnerable people is not an important issue.

However, anyone with an ounce of humanity would see it differently.

I agree whole heartedly with N30, I don't think anybody should have the audacity to become a gatekeeper in a meeting between the Guru and a potential Sikh. Shabad Guru, the basis of Sikhism has been established by God to provide guidance for his own parts. Sikhism is not a club where we dictate pre-requisites for membership. We don't know under what circumstances will Guru attract his Sikh. If self-appointed gatekeepers were allowed to control who is good enough to meet the Guru, then Kauda Rakhash, Sajjan Thug, Guru Angad Dev ji, Guru Amar Das ji would have been barred.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

I cannot believe some sikhs are criticizing him for committing beadhi for not wearing another dastar under neath for taking off his dastar..seriously? This is where you want to know the draw clear concise line between karam kaand/dogmatic mindset and real practical mindset of turning physical symbolism into serve help. Sikhi is practical religion.

;

Not sure why you guys complicate things and cause confusion.....

In the most simplest explanation that I can give -
First,..We ALL have a soul/atman, this is the pure God soul in all of us.,...it is the drop of the ocean...these same atmas, make up the complete paramatma.

HOWEVER, we are here because it is all the game of the MIND..(the mann)

Our mind's are engrossed in maya,...controlled by 5 dhut......not listening to the Atma.
You see, we have a choice whereby we can let the MIND be the master of the soul and let it run free and run the conduct...which makes us manmukh and in complete man-mat.
OR We can make effort to still that running Mind and try to 'merge' it with the ATMA.
This is when the ATMA/PARAMATMA becomes the master of the Mind instead. It then runs all the conduct and one is in gur-mat.

So, the goal for conducting ourselves is to always keep trying to let the Atma/Soul be the master of the mind. But we have to make this same decision using the maya enveloped mind ......so, the REAL IDEA is to.............

.. keep trying to merge and merge this Mind with Atma ..so that it all becomes ONE and the SAME.
This is the 'merging' gurbani talks about.
This is how the MIND recognizes it' origin(mool) and becomes Jyot Saroop...(Mann tu Jyot Saroop hai, apna mool pehchaan)

To conclude,.. understand that YES, we all have the same ATMA-God soul within us.
BUT the GURUS had their MIND'S that COMPLETELY merged in their ATMA,
Their Minds did not have a single ounce of influence from Maya or worldly body.... which is why they could just sit and smile on a hot plate because their ATMA was untouchable.

When Mind is in Maya, that is when it feels pain,joy,sadness, anxiety, worry.....
When Mind is One and the Same merged with Atma,, then it feels none of these, because it is dissociated from body and it's maya surroundings.. Sitting on a hot plate is no pain or torture whatsoever because the atma is unharmed.

We have our Mind's slightly merged here and there, or just a little divine feeling of oneness now and again because our Minds are under heavy influences of 5 dhut and maya.
So, we understand nowhere near about the Atma inside us as the Gurus and some bhagats whose Minds were absorbed in completeness.

quite simply....
GURU= ATMA+MIND are all MERGED into ONE and the same.
Me and You= ATMA + MIND are separate....hence the duality and the ego..

After seeing some discussions on the other threads about atma, soul and God within us and God in Gurus, maybe some further discussion is helpful.

Kabirji says the same thing about how we rant on and on about our Mind and soul, whilst at the same time using this mind's intellect in doing so!

ਜੀਉ ਏਕੁ ਅਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
Jī▫o ek ar sagal sarīrā.
There is One Soul, and it pervades all bodies.

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੯॥੧॥੩੬॥
Is man ka▫o rav rahe kabīrā. ||9||1||36||
Kabeer dwells upon this Mind. ||9||1||36||


Jio/atma/soul/ are the same thing.
These last pangtis (the jio ek ar sagal sareera) come after a number that are contemplating the MIND and questioning the mann.
they say........

ਸਨਕਾਦਿਕ ਨਾਰਦ ਮੁਨਿ ਸੇਖਾ ॥
Sankāḏik nāraḏ mun sekẖā.
Even sages like Sanak and Naarad, and the thousand-headed serpent,

ਤਿਨ ਭੀ ਤਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਪੇਖਾ ॥੩॥
Ŧin bẖī ṯan mėh man nahī pekẖā. ||3||
did not see the mind within the body. ||3||

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਕੋਈ ਖੋਜਹੁ ਭਾਈ ॥
Is man ka▫o ko▫ī kẖojahu bẖā▫ī.
Anyone can search for this mind, O Siblings of Destiny.

ਤਨ ਛੂਟੇ ਮਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੪॥
Ŧan cẖẖūte man kahā samā▫ī. ||4||
When it escapes from the body, where does the mind go? ||4||

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਜੈਦੇਉ ਨਾਮਾਂ ॥
Gur parsādī jaiḏe▫o nāmāʼn.
By Guru's Grace, Jai Dayv and Naam Dayv

ਭਗਤਿ ਕੈ ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਇਨ ਹੀ ਹੈ ਜਾਨਾਂ ॥੫॥
Bẖagaṯ kai parem in hī hai jānāʼn. ||5||
came to know this, through loving devotional worship of the Lord. ||5||

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਨਹੀ ਆਵਨ ਜਾਨਾ ॥
Is man ka▫o nahī āvan jānā.
This mind does not come or go.

ਜਿਸ ਕਾ ਭਰਮੁ ਗਇਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਾਚੁ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੬॥
Jis kā bẖaram ga▫i▫ā ṯin sācẖ pacẖẖānā. ||6||
One whose doubt is dispelled, knows the Truth. ||6||

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ਕਾਈ ॥
Is man ka▫o rūp na rekẖ▫i▫ā kā▫ī.
This mind has no form or outline.

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹੋਇਆ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਬੂਝਿ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੭॥
Hukme ho▫i▫ā hukam būjẖ samā▫ī. ||7||
By God's Command it was created; understanding God's Command, it will be absorbed into Him again. ||7||

ਇਸ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਕੋਈ ਜਾਨੈ ਭੇਉ ॥
Is man kā ko▫ī jānai bẖe▫o.
Does anyone know the secret of this mind?

ਇਹ ਮਨਿ ਲੀਣ ਭਏ ਸੁਖਦੇਉ ॥੮॥
Ih man līṇ bẖa▫e sukẖ▫ḏe▫o. ||8||
This mind shall merge into the Lord, the Giver of peace and pleasure. ||8||
Kabirji is talking about the mind
He is saying "jio ek sagal sareera" because of what we do with our MIND....
You see we all say there is One God, Christians say it, jews say it, muslims say it....
The whole world around Kabirji is talking about the ONE God....just like they do today....but that's it...All talk , chatter,... discuss..but no real uddam or efforts to find Him.

All using their Mind's intellect to discuss the ONE parbrahm.......he is everywhere, in everything...but that's it !......how about experiencing ?

Remember that in gurbani it also mentions a few times....we are like different pots of clay with the same water inside.......just differently decorated on the outside but the inside has the same jal
....yet our mind's attach that same Water/Ji/ God/atma soul to the body and repeatedly discuss...discuss.... and wonder where is mind from, where does it go......etc...

In light of this, Kabirji is telling us 'WAKE UP'' because that same God-soul/water is right inside you.

No good just discussing....Do bhakti and GO WITHIN, find him right inside yourself.
We can carry on discussing until life end, but it is NO USE unless you make the effort to find that SAME God-soul that is INSIDE ALL of us.
God SOUL is very close and within us but by going around discussing and doing Mann vichaar of saying "Yes of course God is inside all of us" we are attaching and associating the Mind to the outer maya with discussions....which leads to EGO. ...We have to find ways of dissociating with this instead.
By associating we make a distinctive line showing MIND is separate from ATMA,,,and this makes the duality....the same Ego.

Simply put ,GOD + EGO= us individuals...manukhs,.. the pots with the water
If You go WITHIN and start doing bakti, then slowly you will start to merge bit by bit and in doing so, begin to shed that EGO, layer by layer..
then in simple math......... GOD - (minus) EGO = God, pure atma, sachkhand...where no ego or identity of mind remains. The mind is jyot saroop.
I said above that Kabirji's "Ji-o ek sagal sarira" is a WAKE-UP to us since, he is saying Kao-rav rahe..to dwell upon this Ji-o Ik in our body, rather than discussing the mind as in the prior pangtis.

ਜੀਉ ਏਕੁ ਅਰੁ ਸਗਲ ਸਰੀਰਾ ॥
Jī▫o ek ar sagal sarīrā.
There is One Soul, and it pervades all bodies.

ਇਸੁ ਮਨ ਕਉ ਰਵਿ ਰਹੇ ਕਬੀਰਾ ॥੯॥੧॥੩੬॥
Is man ka▫o rav rahe kabīrā. ||9||1||36||
Kabeer dwells upon this Mind. ||9||1||36||


With regards to this wake up, he finishes the shabad on this line and continues with raag gwaarayree with...

ਗਉੜੀ ਗੁਆਰੇਰੀ ॥
Gauree Gwaarayree:

ਅਹਿਨਿਸਿ ਏਕ ਨਾਮ ਜੋ ਜਾਗੇ ॥
Ahinis ek nām jo jāge.
Those who are awake to the One Name, day and night -

ਕੇਤਕ ਸਿਧ ਭਏ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਗੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Keṯak siḏẖ bẖa▫e liv lāge. ||1|| rahā▫o.
many of them have become Siddhas - perfect spiritual beings - with their consciousness attuned to the Lord. ||1||Pause||

How are they awake ?? don't their bodies sleep ??..
Yes, the bodies sleep, but the water inside the pot is always jagat,
The Atma soul is untouchable and remains the active force of the universe, no matter what it is cased in.
They have merged their Mann Chit - mind consciousness with the EK Atma-soul inside them.
And How would they do that ?
answer - Bhakti, just like perfect siddhas.

The other way to look at this what Guru Maharaj ordered and what was carried out. Chandi bheta would possibly mean a painless death.

N3O you left out the part where the guys says - ਚੌਪਈ : ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹੁਕਮ ਖਾਲਸੈ ਭਯੋ । ਮਸੰਦ ਭੇਟ ਚੰਡੀ ਕਰ ਦਯੋ । Satiguru ordered the Khalsa, to sacrifice all masands to Chandi.

ਕਈ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਕਈ ਨੀਹ ਚਣਾਇ । ਕਈ ਘਸੀਟ ਮਾਰੇ ਕਈ ਤੇਲ ਤਲਾਇ ।੧੬। Some were killed by weapons, others were bricked alive. Some were dragged by horses and killed, others were tortured in boiling oil.

What I find interesting here is that that this guy claims that Guru Gobind Singh ji used the same methods of execution that the Mughals used on Sikhs. I don't know what to make of that. I find that a bit hard to believe to be honest.

Did Guru Gobind Singh ji really tell these guys to torture masands? Or did these gus just do that shit all by themselves and lied that Guru Gobind Singh ji told them to do it?
I wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.

I having a hard time making sense of this.

ChzS1ngh said it perfectly in a different post...